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Creation Science Debunked

DNAunion

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DNAunion: You mean you’ve actually solved the puzzle of the abiotic origin of homochirality? That’s been a longstanding mystery of prebiotic chemistry
.

Lucaspa: I didn't solve it, but there are several solutions out there if you would take the time to look.

DNAunion: BBZZZZZZZTTT!!! Wrong!

There are several offerings, all with their own problems. (Let me be more
specific, as of about 2001, there was no known abiotic method to produce
the kind of homochirality seen in life and believed to have been needed for life to arise in the first place).

Let me take a look at what you offer.


lucaspa:
1. FASEB J 1998 Apr;12(6):503-507 RNA-directed amino acid homochirality. Martyn Bailey J

DNAunion: Once again, where's the material that supposedly supports your assertion?

And what about the RNA? Is it already homochiral, like that used in the majority of such experiments? If so, you are using one homochiral biological molecule to produce homochirality in another. That wouldn't answer the question of how homochirality first arose in biological molucules.

Lucaspa:
2. Chirality Volume 9, Issue 2 <PICTURE>Abstract 1997 Pages 99-102. The nature of chiral recognition: Is it a three-point interaction? Davankov V.A. 3.

DNAunion: And once again, where's the material you claim supports your position?

3. Z Naturforsch [C] 1997 Jan;52(1-2):89-96 Plural origins of molecular homochirality in our biota Part II. The relative stabilities of homochiral and mixed oligoribotides and peptides. Soares TA, Lins RD, Longo R, Garratt R, Ferreira R

DNAunion: Once again, where's your supporting material?

Lucaspa: This one shows that mixed chiral proteins also function,
so making the initial proteinoids in a heterochiral environment ceases
to be a problem.

4. J Biochem (Tokyo) 1993 Aug;114(2):177-180 Substrate specificity of protein kinase C studied with peptides containing D-amino acid residues.
Eller M, Jarv J, Toomik R, Ragnarsson U, Ekman P, Engstrom L

DNAunion: Again, the actual (alleged) supporting material is missing.

Lucaspa: Remember, many proteins in organisms now
contain D-amino acids. This is especially true in bacterial cell walls.

DNAunion: D-amino acids are the VERY RARE exceptions to the rule that all organisms use only left-handed amino acids during protein synthesis.

And since you brought it up, I don't suppose you would mind providing supporting material that MANY PROTEINS in organisms contain D-amino acids.

From what I recall, it is basically only bacteria that use right-handed amino acids, and even then, it is not for a "true" protein (yes, my own usage - at least I openly admit it when I do something like that) but for a compound
protein-sugar used in their cell walls.

Wait, I just took a minute to look and found something that seems to support what I thought I remembered.

"The oceanographers focused on amino acids, the building blocks of
peptides and proteins. They found that four of the amino acids in the dissolved matter appeared in two flavors, left-handed and right-handed forms. This observation indicates that bacteria produced the amino acids, the scientists conclude. All other types of organisms make only the left-handed versions." (http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc98/7_11_98/fob7.htm)

DNAunion: So it looks like it is just bacteria.

"The amino acid fingerprint, the mix of the various forms, indicates that they came from peptidoglycans, the main structural molecules in bacterial cell walls, says McCarthy, who collaborated with Washington's John I. Hedges and Ronald Benner of the University of Texas Marine Science Institute in Port Aransas. They report their findings in the July 10 Science." (http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc98/7_11_98/fob7.htm)

DNAunion: And it does look like D-amino acids are also restricted to cell walls (in addition to being restricted to bacteria).

But this could still be incomplete.

&nbsp;

So what other organisms, and what other proteins did you have in mind? And can you support them?
 
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DNAunion

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lucaspa:&nbsp; Your position seems to have evolved since the last time we had a "discussion". At that time you were a full blown IDer and claimed that life could not possibly be anything other than intelligently designed.

&nbsp;

DNAunion:&nbsp; I haven't held that position for years.&nbsp; Perhaps you, like many others, preferred to think you knew where I stood rather than listen to me as to where I stood.



Lucaspa:&nbsp; So it seems now we are not discussing whether life can arise from non-life (you agree it can),

&nbsp;

DNAunion:&nbsp; Uhm, please don't tell me what I think.&nbsp; For the record, I have not agreed that life can actually arise from non-life.&nbsp; That is just one of several positions that I accept as possibly being correct.&nbsp;

&nbsp;

Let me restate my position (less technically this time).&nbsp; As a skeptic, I suspend judgment on the purely-natural origin of life until sufficient evidence has been mounted for or against it.&nbsp; At this point, there is not sufficient evidence to convince me that it could occur by purely natural processes alone.

&nbsp;

(This is unlike the case for evolution, for which I have found or been presented with sufficient evidence to take me from "sitting on the fence" to sitting in the evolutionists' camp).

&nbsp;

Lucaspa: ...&nbsp;but specifically whether Fox and co-workers with the protocells have actually done so.

&nbsp;

DNAunion:&nbsp; There's no "whether nor not" about it - they didn't.

&nbsp;
 
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DNAunion

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Lucaspa: That last is the point about dealing the deck. While any particular sequence of cards is improbable, it is virtual certainty that you will get some sequence. If you calculate the probability in any bridge game of getting those particular hands in that particular order, the odds are such that, by your criteria, it couldn't happen.

DNAunion: Please stop trying to tell me what "I say" - you are doing a pretty rotten job at it.

I could pick your probability counter apart, but it is of lesser importance to me than the real issue between us, so I will focus instead on shredding your claims about creating life by frying amino acids and adding water.
 
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DNAunion

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Lenny Flank: “In his work, Behe ignores a very important concept of biological evolution, the idea of “exaptation”.” (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/design.htm)

DNAunion: Wrong. Behe mentions the idea several times.

lucaspa: Where does Behe mention exaptation?

DNAunion: Sure, I’d be glad to support another of my positions – now, when do you plan to start supporting any of yours????

Well, let me start by saying that I don’t plan to read Behe’s whole book to point out every time he mentions the idea of exaptation. And I don’t need to – you claimed he ignored it, so even a single quote refutes Lenny.

So I decided to narrow my search down, but where to start? Well, from my many discussions of ID on the net, I knew that it was page 39 where Behe defines IC so that seemed like a very good beginning point for my search. As it turns out, I needed to merely skim about 30 pages to find a several examples.

This first quote is long – most of it is not pertinent to the point, but some may find the context (analogy) as interesting as the few sentences that supports my position.

“So let us attempt to evolve a bicycle into a motorcycle by the gradual accumulation of mutations. Suppose that a factory produced bicycles, but that occasionally there was a mistake in manufacture. Let us further suppose that if the mistake led to an improvement in the bicycle, then the friends and neighbors of the lucky buyer would demand similar bikes, and the factory would retool to make the mutation a permanent feature. So, like biological mutations, successful mechanical mutations would reproduce and spread. If we are to keep our analogy relevant to biology, however, each change can only be a slight modification, duplication, or rearrangement of a preexisting component, and the change must improve the function of the bicycle. So if the factory mistakenly increased the size of a nut or decreased the diameter of a bolt, or added an extra wheel onto the front axle of left off the rear tire, or put a pedal on the handlebars or added extra spokes, and if any of these slight changes improved the bike ride, then the improvement would immediately be noticed by the buying public and the mutated bikes would, in true Darwinian fashion, dominate the market.

Given these conditions, can we evolve a bicycle into a motorcycle? We can move in the right direction by making the seat more comfortable in small steps, the wheels bigger, and even (assuming our customers prefer the “biker” look) imitating the overall shape in various ways. But a motorcycle depends on a source of fuel, and a bicycle has nothing that can be slightly modified to become a gasoline tank. And what part of the bicycle could be duplicated to begin building a motor? Even if a lucky accident brought a lawnmower engine from a neighboring factory into the bicycle factory, the motor would have go be mounted on the bike and be connected in the right way to the drive chain. How could this be done step-by-step from bicycle parts? A factory that made bicycles simply could not produce a motorcycle by natural selection acting on variation – by “numerous, successive, slight modifications” – and in fact there is no example in history of a complex change in a product occurring in this manner.

A bicycle thus may be a conceptual precursor to a motorcycle, but it is not a physical one. Darwinian evolution requires physical precursors.” (Michael J. Behe, Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution, Free Press, 1996, p44-45)

DNAunion: And here’s the key one. Note especially the title of this section.

”AN INDIRECT ROUTE
Some evolutionary biologists – like Richard Dawkins – have fertile imaginations. Given a starting point, they almost always can spin a story to get to any biological structure you wish. The talent can be valuable, but it is a two-edged sword. Although they might think of possible evolutionary routes other people overlook, they also tend to ignore details and roadblocks that would trip up their scenarios. Science, however, cannot ultimately ignore relevant details, and at the molecular level all the “details” become critical. If a molecule nut or bolt is missing, then the whole system can crash. Because the cilium is irreducibly complex, no direct, gradual route leads to its production. So an evolutionary story for the cilium must envision a circuitous route, perhaps adapting parts that were originally used for other purposes. Let’s try, then, to imagine a plausible indirect route to a cilium using pre-existing parts of the cell.

To begin, microtubules occur in many cells and are usually used as mere structural supports, like girders, to prop up cell shape. Furthermore, motor proteins also are involved in other cell functions, such as transporting cargo from one end of the cell to another. The motor proteins are known to travel along microtubules, using them as little highways to get from one point to another. An indirect evolutionary argument might suggest that at some point several microtubules stuck together, maybe to reinforce some particular cell shape. After that, a motor protein that normally traveled on microtubules might have accidentally acquired the ability to push two neighboring microtubules, causing a slight bending motion that somehow helped the organism to survive. Further small improvements gradually produced the cilium we find in modern cells.

Intriguing as this scenario may sound, though, critical details are overlooked. The question we must ask of this indirect scenario is one for which many evolutionary biologists have little patience: but how exactly?

For example, suppose you wanted to make a mousetrap. In your garage you might have a piece of wood from an old Popsicle stick (for the platform), a spring from an old wind-up clock, a piece of metal (for the hammer) in the form of a crowbar, a darning needle for the holding bar, and a bottle cap that you fancy to use as a catch. But these pieces couldn’t form a functioning mousetrap without extensive modification, and while the modification was going on, they would be unable to work as a mousetrap. Their previous functions make them ill-suited for virtually any new role as part of a complex system.

In the case of the cilium, there are analogous problems. The mutated protein that accidentally stuck to microtubules would block their function as “highways” for transport. A protein that indiscriminately bound microtubules would disrupt the cell’s shape – just as a building’s shape would be disrupted by an erroneously placed cable that accidentally pulled together girders supporting the building. A linker that strengthened microtubule bundles for structural support would tend to make them inflexible, unlike the flexible linker nexin. An unregulated protein, freshly binding to microtubules, would push apart microtubules that should be close together. The incipient cilium would not be at the cell surface. If it were not at the cell surface, then internal beating could disrupt the cell; but even if it were at the cell surface, the number of motor proteins would probably not be enough to move the cilium. And even if the cilium moved, an awkward stroke would not necessarily move the cell. And if the cell did move, it would be an unregulated motion using energy and not corresponding to any need of the cell. A hundred other difficulties would have to be overcome before an incipient cilium would be an improvement to a cell.” (Michael J. Behe, Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution, Free Press, 1996, p65-67)

DNAunion: So when Behe mentions an indirect or circuitous route, implied is exaptation of one or more preexisting components from other systems. Which leads me to my third quote from those 30 pages.

”Even if a system is irreducibly complex (and thus cannot have been produced directly), however, one cannot definitely rule out the possibility of an indirect, circuitous route. As the complexity of an interacting system increases, though, the likelihood of such an indirect route drops precipitously.” (Michael J. Behe, Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution, Free Press, 1996, p40)

DNAunion: And I remember Behe mentioning the idea other times too.

Another of Lenny’s claims shot down.
 
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