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Creation predictions

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by DogmaHunter, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. dad

    dad Undefeated! Supporter

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    Long as you agree with Jesus it is OK. Daniel the prophet, who was verified by Jesus is not up for grabs, or negotiable. No opinions needed. really, it is a done deal.
     
  2. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Jesus did call Daniel a prophet and not a historian recording current events of his time. That does mean a lot in the internal history and should for Christians as it is the King of kings and Lord of lords making that statement.
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    It does but not in Daniel. You may want to examine Ezekiel, Isaiah and Jeremiah for that but not Daniel. He was taken in exile in the first sacking of Jerusalem.

    That is based on manuscript fragments found not on the date of the autographica.

    Indeed this as the opinion of skeptics dating back to the 19th century through the 20th century.

    However, after the Qumran discoveries (Daniel fragments found in caves 1-4) the scholarship has changed. Especially cave 4:

    For those supporting the historical-critical date of the book of Daniel new issues are being raised. Since there is a manuscript of Daniel that supposedly dates within 50 years of the autograph, is there enough time for the supposed traditio-historical and redaction-critical developments allegedly needed for the growth of the book? Supporters of the Maccabean dating hypothesis of Daniel will be hard put to explain all of this in their reconstructions. To express it differently, do the early dates of the fragments from Cave 4 leave enough room for the developments, editorial and redactional as well as others, that are so often proposed (e.g., Koch 1986:20–24)? The verdict seems to be negative, and an earlier date for Daniel than the second century is unavoidable.

    [...]

    Evidently this is a complex picture. The newly published Daniel materials from Qumran appear to throw important new light on the issue of the original text of Daniel. We say this because there is great harmony between the MT and the Cave 4 finds of the book of Daniel. Thus it no longer seems permissible to dismiss the Hebrew-Aramaic text as unreliable.

    We need to note the following:

    1. When it comes to variants, the eight Dead Sea scroll Daniel manuscripts, for the most part, are very close to each other.

    2. There is no significant abbreviation and no lengthy expansion in any of the manuscript fragments. “The text of Daniel in these [Cave 4] Daniel scrolls conforms closely to later Masoretic tradition; there are to be found, however, some rare variants which side with the Alexandrian Greek [Septuagint] against the MT and Theodotion” (Cross 1956:86).

    3. These manuscript fragments do not contain any of the additions that are in all the Greek manuscripts, such as the Prayer of Azariah, the Song of the Three Young Men, and the Story of Susanna.

    4. The change from Hebrew into Aramaic is preserved for Daniel 2:4b in 4QDana as it was previously in 1QDana. Thus two different manuscripts give evidence to this change. The change from Aramaic into Hebrew in Daniel 8:1 is clearly manifested in both 4QDana and 4QDanb, just as in the MT.

    Based on the overwhelming conformity of these Qumran Daniel manuscripts with each other and with the MT, despite the few insignificant variants that agree with the Septuagint, it is evident that the MT is the well-preserved key text for the book of Daniel. An eclectic approach, using the Hebrew/Aramaic text, the Greek, and other versions as if they were all on the same level without giving priority to the Hebrew text is no longer supportable, if it ever was previously. The Hebrew/Aramaic Masoretic text of the book of Daniel now has stronger support than at any other time in the history of the interpretation of the book of Daniel. (New Light on the Book of Daniel from the Dead Sea Scrolls)


    Meaning the Qumran discoveries confirm the MT variant texts. The discoveries do show Daniel was in wide circulation in the 2nd century BC, which if the previous scholarship is correct would have made it the most popular OT book as there was little time from autograph to multiple manuscript copies. Which would be 40-50 years if believed. Only the NT Gospel of John can boast such a flash to bang dating.

    Qumran discoveries also found Daniel among canonical OT books.

    These doubts and uncertainties about the canonicity of Daniel among the Qumran people can now be laid aside for good. They have been based largely on the “roughly square proportions of the columns of 1QDana and because Pap6QDan is written on papyrus” (Ulrich 1987:19). But professor Ulrich now says,


    From Cave 4 we now have overriding evidence on both points from manuscripts of books indisputably authoritative or ‘canonical,’ including Deuteronomy, Kings, Isaiah, and Psalms.. .. However one uses in relation to Qumran the category of what is later explicitly termed ‘canonical,’ the book of Daniel was certainly in that category (Ulrich 1987:19).

    Canonicity is supported also by the so called 4QFlorilegium, a fragment that employs the quotation formula “which written in the book of Daniel the prophet.” Such a formula is typical of quotations from canonical Scripture at Qumran. It is similar also to Matthew 24:15, where Jesus refers to “Daniel the prophet.”

    Inasmuch as Daniel was already canonical at Qumran at about 100 BC, how could it have become so quickly canonical if it had just been produced a mere half century before? While we do not know exactly how long it took for books to become canonical, it may be surmised that insofar as Daniel was reckoned to belong to the canonical books, it had a longer existence than a mere five decades, as the Maccabean dating hypothesis suggests. Both the canonical status and the fact that Daniel was considered a “prophet” speak for the antiquity of the book of Daniel. An existence of a mere five decades between the production of a Biblical book in its final form and canonization does not seem reasonable.

    Thus the canonical acceptance of the book of Daniel at Qumran suggests an earlier origin of the book than the second century BC. In 1969, based on the evidence available at that time regarding the Qumran Daniel texts, Roland K. Harrison had already concluded that the second century dating of the book of Daniel was “absolutely precluded by the evidence from Qumran, partly because there are no indications whatever that the sectaries compiled any of the Biblical manuscripts recovered from the site, and partly because there would, in the latter event, have been insufficient time for Maccabean compositions to be circulated, venerated, and accepted as canonical Scripture by a Maccabean sect” (Harrison 1969:1127).

    Subsequent to this, he stated that based on the Qumran manuscripts, “there can no longer be any possible reason for considering the book as a Maccabean product” (Harrison 1979:862). The most recent publications of Daniel manuscripts confirm this conclusion.
    Daniel. (New Light on the Book of Daniel from the Dead Sea Scrolls)
     
  4. DogmaHunter

    DogmaHunter Code Monkey

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    Did they also fake all the archeological finds that corroborate the stories?
    And let's be a bit serious here: old-europe christian scribes making copies of ancient manuscripts, are not our only source of intel concerning ancient history.

    No. And I already explained how that is not true with my example of we can know (and thus NOT just rely on belief of a single potentially biased source) that a general named Julius Ceasar went on a conquest campaign in Gaul, returned to Rome with his army and then did battle with the roman Senate's legions lead by Pompei, and won.

    This part of ancient history is corroborated by several independend lines of evidence. Not all of which is text by some author.
     
  5. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    Quite a few straw men there, but basically it's a weak argument. What you need are fragments of the Book of Daniel or mentions of it dating from before the Maccabean period.
     
  6. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    It might also explain your lack there of.
     
  7. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Hang in there brother. You are doing well.

    Just so that you will know, Bible scholars suggest there are more than 300 prophetic Scriptures completed in the life of Jesus. Circumstances such as his birthplace, lineage, and method of execution were beyond his control and could not have been accidentally or deliberately fulfilled.

    In the book Science Speaks, Peter Stoner and Robert Newman discuss the statistical improbability of one man, whether accidentally or deliberately, fulfilling just eight of the prophecies Jesus fulfilled.

    The chance of this happening, they say, is 1 in 1017 power. Stoner gives an illustration that helps visualize the magnitude of such odds:

    Suppose that we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man, from their day to the present time, providing they wrote using their own wisdom.
    44 Prophecies of the Messiah Fulfilled in Jesus Christ

    The mathematical improbability of 300, or 44, or even just eight fulfilled prophesies of Jesus stands as evidence to his messiahship.
     
  8. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    One of my favorites is recounted in Matt 21:1-7 where Jesus basically says to his disciples, "Wait! It says in the OT that if I'm the Messiah I'm supposed to ride into town on a donkey. Quick, go get me a donkey."
     
  9. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Dad.........Not another book in the Bible has been attacked by so many enemies of the Word of God as has the book of Daniel. For 1600 years at least men have violently attacked and tried to discredit this precious book.

    Josephus the Jewish historian gives a history in his productions of the Jews from Abraham to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. In his account of the persecutions and the struggle with Antiochus Epiphanes, Josephus tells us that these things came to pass "According to the prophet Daniel which was GIVEN 408 YEARS BEFORE".

    According to Josephus the book of Daniel was written in about 573 B.C. He also tells us that when Alexander the Great (Fortold in Dan. 8:5-8) came against Jerusalem in conquest of 332 B.C. Juddua the high priest at that tie showed him the reference to himself in the book of Daniel which so pleased Alaxender that he spared the city.

    These are facts recorded by an accepted authority on Jewish history and according to those facts, the book of Daniel must have been written before 332 B.C.

    Every prophecy in Daniel up until today has been meticulously, accurately and minutely fulfilled in every detail which is in my opinion why so many people reject Daniel. IF he was that correct....100% of the time, then why would we think that what comes next prophetically speaking will be inaccurate?

    That is why the book of Daniel is a target for critics.

    People who reject the supernatural verbal inspiration of the Bible as the nfallible dictation of the Scriptures by the Holy Spirit to holy men, must somehow destroy this book if they hope to disprove the Word of God a the Word of God.
     
  10. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Since Jesus is the focus of ALL Scripture, what was said of Him in the Old Test. then happened in the New Test. is proof of His divinity.

    Luke 24:27...........
    "And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself."

    My dear friend, Human knowledge must be understood to be believed, but divine knowledge must be believed to be understood. By that I mean that The Bible is a closed book to the critic and infidel. He can learn a few facts but always misses the message presented.

    PROPHECY
    Isaiah 53:12.............
    "Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

    Deuteronomy 21:23; Isaiah 53:5, 8; Daniel 9:26

    FULFILLMENT
    Hebrews 2:9...........
    "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

    Luke 23:33, 46; Galatians 3:13; Ephesians 2:13-18; Colossians 1:20; 1 John 2:2
     
  11. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    Who here is trying to "destroy" the book? All we're trying to do is understand it better--who wrote it, when, why, etc.
     
  12. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I am sorry for the misunderstanding my friend.

    When I read your comment of.............
    "One of my favorites is recounted in Matt 21:1-7 where Jesus basically says to his disciples, "Wait! It says in the OT that if I'm the Messiah I'm supposed to ride into town on a donkey. Quick, go get me a donkey."

    Those words sounded like sarcasm to me and that you were trying to discredit the Words of the Lord Jesus.

    I guess I did not read them as you intended.
     
  13. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    No, I was just being snarky about your understanding of prophecy. Jesus comments in Matt 21, even if delivered in the off-hand way I paraphrased them, discredit neither Jesus himself nor Zechariah.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  14. dad

    dad Undefeated! Supporter

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    Right. I suspect God told the donkey to be ready, just as He told the fish to be near the boat to be caught. He was Lord over nature.
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Point out the straw men.

    If you read the larger piece at link, the Qumran discoveries show the book of Daniel was in wider circulation close to the date scholars believed the autograph was composed.

    If one wants to keep the 2nd century composition of Daniel considering the Qumran discoveries, then they would be supporting a 40 year autograph to wide circulation. Canonical books just don't happen this way as the author points out.

    There are fragments from all 12 chapters between the 4 caves at Qumran.

    Contents of the Dead Sea Scroll Daniel Manuscripts
    While these exciting new publications will have our major attention in this paper, we need to mention the other previously published Qumran materials on Daniel.
    • In 1955 D. Barthélemy published two scroll fragments: 1QDana and 1QDanb (Barthélemy and Milik 1955:150–52). These contain parts of 22 verses from Daniel 1–3, that is, Daniel 1:10–17; 2:2–6 (1QDana) and 3:22–30 (1QDanb).
    • In 1962 Maurice Baillet published a papyrus fragment from Cave 6, containing possibly parts of Daniel 8:16, 17, 21, 22; and clearly 10:8–16; 11:33–36, 38 (Baillet and Milik 1962:114, 115; pl. 23).
    • The most extensively preserved scroll of the book of Daniel from Qumran is one from Cave 4: 4QDana, which contains large portions of Daniel. Preserved are parts of Daniel 1:16–20; 2:9–11, 19–49; 3:1, 2; 4:29, 30; 5:5–7, 12–14, 16–19; 7:5–7, 25–28; 8:1–5; 10:16–20; 11:13–16. Scroll 4QDanb contains Daniel 5:10–12, 14–16, 19–22; 6:8–22, 27–29; 7:1–6, 11(?), 26–28; 8:1–8, 13–16; and 4QDanc has Daniel 10:5–9, 11–16, 21; 11:1, 2, 13–17, 25–29 (Ulrich 1987:18).
    This means that we have at our disposal from the Dead Sea scrolls parts of all chapters, except Daniel 9 and 12. Of course, the unpublished 4QDane is to have a few words of various parts of Daniel 9. There is also an overlap of a number of passages in Daniel 1, 5, 7, 8, 10, and 11. Reference to Daniel 12 is made in 4QFlorilegium, an anthology of midrashic materials [rabbinical commentaries] on 2 Samuel and Psalms 1, 2.
    New Light on the Book of Daniel from the Dead Sea Scrolls

    You mean Harvard book review from 6th century BC? This is once again applying a different standard to Biblical works of antiquity not applied to others.

    Or did you mean the internal evidence where Daniel himself or his scribe tied the prophecies into a recognizable and or identifiable historical period?

    If so yes such exists.

    In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the articles of the house of God, which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the articles into the treasure house of his god. (Daniel 1:1-2)

    Now in the second year of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams; and his spirit was so troubled that his sleep left him. Then the king gave the command to call the magicians, the astrologers, the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans to tell the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king. And the king said to them, “I have had a dream, and my spirit is anxious to know the dream.” (Daniel 2:1-3)

    In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions of his head while on his bed. Then he wrote down the dream, telling the main facts. (Daniel 7:1).


    There's more of course but it clearly shows the internal evidence is accurate and declarative.
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I said no such thing.

    Show the non European and near east source. The near east was dominated by Byzantine Eastern Orthodoxy before the Muslim dynasties and the West dominated by Catholic Christian monarchies.

    We know this from roughly 6 manuscripts dating back to 1000 AD almost one thousand years after the events. And again an internal triumvirate struggle for power is still Roman and not an independent source.

    Show the various independent sources which are not Roman and the manuscript history.

    Remember I'm not the one calling ancient history into question. I'm just applying the flawed and biased standards you and others apply to the NT historical manuscript evidence. Which amounts to impeaching the main witness in a crime.

    I have also pointed out that your line of argument as well as others is from the position "prophecies don't happen therefore the authors of Scriptures wrote contemporary of the events or thereafter. Which is vaticinia ex eventu.
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Actually many of my Reformed brethren have opined on the Messianic prophecies in Daniel. They are not Dispensationalists:

    The Kingdom of God in the Old Testament: The Prophetic Hope
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    You call into question Matt 21:1-7 as something the author just threw in there?

    Is the contention Jesus rode both the Jenny and colt and the other Gospel account only mentions one donkey?

    If so Matthew and Zechariah may be giving us a look at how the animals were cared for back then and weaning techniques which still apply today. For example, you never separate a colt from the Jenny (mother) during and shortly after weaning, which can last 6-8 months.

    • Weaning can be a very stressful time for Jenny and foal, and some owners advise gradual weaning over a period of up to 3 months rather than abrupt separation.
    • If the foal is weaned between 6 and 8 months, any noise or distress can be eliminated if only a fence separates the pair so the foal can still see and smell his mother.
    • Other breeders advise abrupt weaning; otherwise the dam will take longer for her milk supply to dry up.
    • Breeders suggest providing the weaned foal with an assortment of toys such as old tyres painted different colours, a soccer ball to push around, large drums to negotiate, hessian bags filled with tin cans and ice cream containers that foals love to carry around. (Birth, weaning and reproduction in donkeys - LSB)

    It seems Jesus did not support abrupt weaning.

    Then again living in Texas and having sons in the FFA I already knew this.
     
  19. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes sir that is true.

    He also told the fish where to be to pick up Jonah.
     
  20. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Actually that is not true. The way you delivered your opinion did in fact bring into question what Jesus did
    IMO. To me it seemed that you were trying to make fun of the Lord Jesus Christ and what He did.

    I personally simply believe what happened happened just as it was said that it would happen. I honestly do not see how that would compel you to know what my understanding of Bible prophecy is.

    Dr. John Gill says that .......
    "All this was done,...." /The disciples were sent to the neighbouring village for the ass and colt, and they brought them, and Christ rode upon them; not because of the distance of the place from Jerusalem, for he was just at it; or because he was weary, or it would be very fatiguing to him to walk thither on foot; for he had been used to travelling, and had gone through most parts of Galilee and Judea; but that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet: the Ethiopic version adds, Isaiah; for the former part of the following citation stands in Isaiah 62:11 as the latter does in Zechariah 9:9. It was usual with the Jews to cite Scripture in this manner, by taking a part from one writer, and another from anther, and joining them together: saying, the following words. Matthew 21:4 Commentaries: This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:

    And just how do you understand my understanding of prophecy?
     
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