Creation predictions

[PsychoSarah]

Jews went into captivity on cue as prophesied, to a specific country for a specific time.

-_- name the country, time period, and bible verse, please.

Babylon would not invade Israel to fulfill some prophesy of Jews. Nor would they be able to know it would be 70 years.

If it is within the pages that it is fulfilled, then it is null, because a person can edit it to meet the prophecy, or even write the prophecy AFTER the event.

Now why did the specific black hole science predicted never happen in SN1987a?

Actually, from what I looked up, people didn't predict that the supernova would result in a black hole. Rather, they predicted it would form a neutron star. One of the possible explanations as to why no neutron star is observed is that a black hole formed instead; however, as it is at the moment, it is simply unknown why we don't see a neutron star there. It's not like we can head over there and check, at the moment.

 

[Speedwell]

[Staff edit].

Daniel a con man? The Book of Daniel isn't even a prophetic book; technically it's an Apocalypse, written mid-2nd centruy BC. It's an apocalyptic account of the Maccabean revolt set in exilic times.

 

[Kylie]

You have proven Daniel was written after the fact eh? We are supposed to laugh?

I'm laughing at your inability to actually provide a prophecy that meets those criteria.

Oh wait, you said that Biblical prophecies don't need to meet them. How you can be sure they are actual prophecies then, I haven't the foggiest, but hey, whatever makes you happy.

 

[dad]

-_- name the country, time period, and bible verse, please.

Seventy Years in Captivity - The Babylonian Captivity with Map (Bible History Online)

If it is within the pages that it is fulfilled, then it is null, because a person can edit it to meet the prophecy, or even write the prophecy AFTER the event.

Prophets lived many years apart. Daniel had read the prophesies of Jeremiah.

Actually, from what I looked up, people didn't predict that the supernova would result in a black hole. Rather, they predicted it would form a neutron star.

Ok, it was a while ago I remember a missing black hole. I'd have to dig a bit to see if it was expected from this SN or maybe it was some other one. Anyhow, let's go with the missing neutron star for now.

Ha. Expected star missing in action. Nice theory.

I did find this...

"The theory of stellar evolution predicts that the final stage of a massive star (typically more than eight solar masses) is a core collapse followed by a neutron star or a black hole."
SN1987A heralds the start of neutrino astronomy - CERN Courier

Ha, they are missing both!

 

[dad]

I'm laughing at your inability to actually provide a prophecy that meets those criteria.

Oh wait, you said that Biblical prophecies don't need to meet them. How you can be sure they are actual prophecies then, I haven't the foggiest, but hey, whatever makes you happy.

Srawman criteria.

Yet I showed how the bible fulfilled them anyhow. That actually fulfills another prophesy about the last days. In the last days scoffers shall come.

 

[dad]

Daniel a con man? The Book of Daniel isn't even a prophetic book;

Jesus quoted Daniel actually and specifically called him a prophet. Boy are you overruled!

technically it's an Apocalypse, written mid-2nd centruy BC.

Funny Jesus quoted it a few centuries earlier eh? Or were the gospels written last week?

It's an apocalyptic account of the Maccabean revolt set in exilic times.

Not possible. It covers the kingdoms from Babylon to the end. Never even mentions the Maccabeans. Jesus said when we see the abomination set up by the final wicked ruler, THEN we should flee. So it is prophesy.

 

[Kylie]

Srawman criteria.

Yet I showed how the bible fulfilled them anyhow. That actually fulfills another prophesy about the last days. In the last days scoffers shall come.

But you were totally unable to show a single prophecy that fulfilled them all.

And this new prophecy you mention here? That's just an example of one that is likely to happen anyway. I can make a prophecy that you will eat and drink tomorrow and it would be just as impressive.

 

[Speedwell]

Jesus quoted Daniel actually and specifically called him a prophet. Boy are you overruled!

No. Whether you consider Daniel to have foretold the future or not, the Book of Daniel is by it's literary form an Apocolypse and it is not included with the prophetic books of the Old Testament.

Funny Jesus quoted it a few centuries earlier eh? Or were the gospels written last week?

I don't know about you creationists, but most other Christians believe the Gospels to have been written in the first and second centuries AD. The idea that Jesus quoted the Book of Daniel a few centuries before the book was written in the mid second century BC wants some explaining.

 

[dad]

But you were totally unable to show a single prophecy that fulfilled them all.

And this new prophecy you mention here? That's just an example of one that is likely to happen anyway. I can make a prophecy that you will eat and drink tomorrow and it would be just as impressive.

The prophesies need no further proof. They are evidence.

 

[dad]

No. Whether you consider Daniel to have foretold the future or not, the Book of Daniel is by it's literary form an Apocolypse and it is not included with the prophetic books of the Old Testament.

I seem to remember something about so called minor prophets. However Daniel was one of the greatest, and spoken about as a prophets by God. It does not get any more prophetic than Daniel. Call it a tomato if you like.

I don't know about you creationists, but most other Christians believe the Gospels to have been written in the first and second centuries AD.

We were talking about Daniel Someone claimed it was written after the prophesies in it were fulfilled.

The idea that Jesus quoted the Book of Daniel a few centuries before the book was written in the mid second century BC wants some explaining.

Your claim Daniel was not a captive in Babylon and who lived during certain reigns of kings of Babylon and Persia is the issue.

You really want to toss out that sort of accusation without offering proof?

 

[Speedwell]

Your claim Daniel was not a captive in Babylon and who lived during certain reigns of kings of Babylon and Persia is the issue.

You really want to toss out that sort of accusation without offering proof?

It's not an "accusation," but the standard scholarly evaluation of the text. The book of Daniel was written during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes. It reflected events of the period but was set in the time of the Exile and featured Daniel, a famous legendary character of Jewish folklore, both in and out of the Bible--like King Arthur. It probably started out as two separate texts. The first part, the collection of Daniel stories, was originally written in Aramaic--not a language in use at the time of exile. The dating is pretty reliable. The work is indeed, in part, a prophetic book. But it does not appear in the Jewish canon of prophetic books, which was closed in 200 BC It is also interesting to notice that Daniel's prophesies were spot on, up to and except for the manner of death of Antiochus, which occurred in 164 BC.

 

[dad]

It's not an "accusation," but the standard scholarly evaluation of the text.

Source?

The book of Daniel was written during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes. It reflected events of the period but was set in the time of the Exile and featured Daniel, a famous legendary character of Jewish folklore, both in and out of the Bible--like King Arthur.

So you don't believe in Daniel the prophet Jesus spoke of, OK.

It probably started out as two separate texts. The first part, the collection of Daniel stories, was originally written in Aramaic--not a language in use at the time of exile. The dating is pretty reliable. The work is indeed, in part, a prophetic book. But it does not appear in the Jewish canon of prophetic books, which was closed in 200 BC It is also interesting to notice that Daniel's prophesies were spot on, up to and except for the manner of death of Antiochus, which occurred in 164 BC.

Don't blame Daniel for your lack of understanding on what was prophesied and about who the prophesies were speaking of.

You so called reliable dating is wrong. Jesus was right.

 

[Speedwell]

Source?

So you don't believe in Daniel the prophet Jesus spoke of, OK.

Don't blame Daniel for your lack of understanding on what was prophesied and about who the prophesies were speaking of.

You so called reliable dating is wrong. Jesus was right.

Are you sure you're not a Dispensationalist? That certainly would explain a lot of your strange ideas about the Bible.

 

[dad]

Are you sure you're not a Dispensationalist? That certainly would explain a lot of your strange ideas about the Bible.

There is nothing strange about knowing, as Jesus said, that Daniel was a prophet and what he said will come to pass.

 

[Speedwell]

There is nothing strange about knowing, as Jesus said, that Daniel was a prophet and what he said will come to pass.

That's fine, as long as you keep civil about it. You don't own Christianity or the Bible and are in no position to dictate to the rest of us what we must believe about it.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Seventy Years in Captivity - The Babylonian Captivity with Map (Bible History Online)

Prophets lived many years apart. Daniel had read the prophesies of Jeremiah.

-_- it doesn't meet one of my requirements: that the prophecy has to be fulfilled OUTSIDE of the pages of the bible. Furthermore, the accounts in the bible actually vary in terms of the time frame years, with the years stated for which the deportation occurred varying from 597-581 BCE. In addition, the biblical account exaggerates, as not all of the Jews were exiled, and their return to the area was very gradual. Thus, the prophecy doesn't meet my requirements.

Ok, it was a while ago I remember a missing black hole. I'd have to dig a bit to see if it was expected from this SN or maybe it was some other one. Anyhow, let's go with the missing neutron star for now.

Ha. Expected star missing in action. Nice theory.

Theory of what? In any case, not every area of scientific investigation is equal when it comes to the reliability of predictions. We know a lot less about objects in space than we do about objects on this planet, and the very nature of science DEMANDS that predictions have a chance of being wrong (since scientific theories must retain the capacity to be disproven). Finding 1 example of uncertainty doesn't exactly mean anything in that context, now does it? Sure, if science claimed to be absolutely perfect, it'd be a sure win for you, but alas, that isn't the case. However, the bible clearly says that any prophet that makes a prophecy that doesn't come to pass is a liar, and Jesus claimed that he would return again (saying this after his resurrection) within the lifetime of his disciples. Uh oh.

I did find this...

"The theory of stellar evolution predicts that the final stage of a massive star (typically more than eight solar masses) is a core collapse followed by a neutron star or a black hole."
SN1987A heralds the start of neutrino astronomy - CERN Courier

Ha, they are missing both!

In one instance that you found. Usually, that is what happens. This isn't the first supernova viewed from our planet.

 

[dad]

That's fine, as long as you keep civil about it. You don't own Christianity or the Bible and are in no position to dictate to the rest of us what we must believe about it.

Jesus validated Daniel as a prophet and authentic. Frankly no one cares about any irrelevant dissenting baseless opinions about him either. You would need to present your case.

Daniels' fulfilled prophesies of Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece and Rome are predictions that come from a creation believer. All prophesy in the bible also does for that matter.

 

[dad]

-_- it doesn't meet one of my requirements: that the prophecy has to be fulfilled OUTSIDE of the pages of the bible.

The captivity is known outside of the bible.

Furthermore, the accounts in the bible actually vary in terms of the time frame years, with the years stated for which the deportation occurred varying from 597-581 BCE. In addition, the biblical account exaggerates, as not all of the Jews were exiled, and their return to the area was very gradual. Thus, the prophecy doesn't meet my requirements.

No one said they all would be captives.

I don't want to quibble about opinions of dates, because the fact that they were in captivity about seventy years is above that. I believe it was exact, but this is not the thread to argue that. Do you really want to try and claim the amazing prophesies of what country would come and when, and why, and for how long are no good because some under informed guessers wish to try and tweak the years a bit?

Theory of what? In any case, not every area of scientific investigation is equal when it comes to the reliability of predictions. We know a lot less about objects in space than we do about objects on this planet,

Fair enough. But reading the articles or either, we seem to see pronouncements posing as authoritative.

and the very nature of science DEMANDS that predictions have a chance of being wrong (since scientific theories must retain the capacity to be disproven).

Not my problem. The bible has no such criteria!

Finding 1 example of uncertainty doesn't exactly mean anything in that context, now does it?

I see it all the time.

Sure, if science claimed to be absolutely perfect, it'd be a sure win for you, but alas, that isn't the case. However, the bible clearly says that any prophet that makes a prophecy that doesn't come to pass is a liar, and Jesus claimed that he would return again (saying this after his resurrection) within the lifetime of his disciples. Uh oh.

You were misinformed.

In one instance that you found. Usually, that is what happens. This isn't the first supernova viewed from our planet.

Nor the first one where they were surprised how wrong the were!

 

[PsychoSarah]

The captivity is known outside of the bible.

Irrelevant when the prophecy can't be confirmed to be unaltered since the event happened; for all we know, the actual prediction was 100 years, and it was later reduced to 70 in writing to match better with what actually happened.

No one said they all would be captives.

Then the prophecy is vague, since it doesn't say that only some would be captives.

I don't want to quibble about opinions of dates, because the fact that they were in captivity about seventy years is above that. I believe it was exact, but this is not the thread to argue that. Do you really want to try and claim the amazing prophesies of what country would come and when, and why, and for how long are no good because some under informed guessers wish to try and tweak the years a bit?

-_- those uninformed "guessers" are in the pages of the bible itself.

Fair enough. But reading the articles or either, we seem to see pronouncements posing as authoritative.

An unfortunate tendency of human speech more than anything else. It's a lot harder to write and speak in a maintained non-authoritative tone.

Not my problem. The bible has no such criteria!

I see it all the time.

You were misinformed.

Deuteronomy 18:22 "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

I am not misinformed; the bible clearly states that when a prophecy doesn't come to pass, the prophet is wrong and not to be trusted. Given that a lot of Christians view Jesus as the human embodiment of god, that makes for quite a problem when one of his prophecies doesn't pass.

Also, here is the prophecy Jesus made which did not pass, repeated among multiple NT books:
“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

“Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.“ (Matthew 24: 25-34)

“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place…“ (Mark 13:26-30)

“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. Then He told them a parable: Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.“ (Luke 21:27-32)

Which one of us is misinformed?

 

[dad]

Irrelevant when the prophecy can't be confirmed to be unaltered since the event happened; for all we know, the actual prediction was 100 years, and it was later reduced to 70 in writing to match better with what actually happened.

Ancient tablets reveal life of Jews in Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon

Then the prophecy is vague, since it doesn't say that only some would be captives.

It was not a prophesy that dealt with percentages who would be taken away.

-_- those uninformed "guessers" are in the pages of the bible itself.

Such as?

Deuteronomy 18:22 "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

I am not misinformed; the bible clearly states that when a prophecy doesn't come to pass, the prophet is wrong and not to be trusted. Given that a lot of Christians view Jesus as the human embodiment of god, that makes for quite a problem when one of his prophecies doesn't pass.

You are misinformed, He did not say people would do what you say in that time at all.

Also, here is the prophecy Jesus made which did not pass, repeated among multiple NT books:
“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

“Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.“ (Matthew 24: 25-34)

“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place…“ (Mark 13:26-30)

“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. Then He told them a parable: Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.“ (Luke 21:27-32)

We do not see the great tribulation, the stars having fallen from the sly..etc etc. WHEN you see those thing, that generation then that sees it will not pass until all be fulfilled. (because the events are rapid paced and will not take many years to unfold and complete)

Which one of us is misinformed?

You were. Hopefully you are now properly informed.