Creation or Evolution?

[lucaspa]

The harlot and the apostate church would like you to believe you can not be perfect,

Apples and oranges, John. Read the claim again:
The Bible never says that 1) the universe was created perfect or 2) humans were created perfect. The most that it says is Genesis 1 where God pronounces creation as "very good". Not perfect.

We are talking about whether the uinverse was created perfect or humans created perfect. Genesis 1 is clear that this was not so.

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

You've got a bad translation again.
"I am God Almighty, walk before me, and be blameless."

Your other verses are equally bad attempts to make the Bible say something it doesn't.

 

[lucaspa]

God says that Abraham would walk before him. doesn't a shadow trail u, but its always there? God is like abraham's shadow, and "be thou perfect" could also be interpreted as "be thou blameless". God was with Abraham no matter wat, and through human and God's eyes Abraham was doing a just cause for God.

You are learning one lesson of this forum very well: never trust anything JohnR7 tells you about the Bible. Very good.

i've studied the ten commandments. we know wat they are..but and interesting thing about the ten commandments is that it seems to tell wat we do. for instance, "thou shalt not kill" y would God tell us to not killl? its becuz that we have murderous intent and that we have murdered. the fact that the ten commandments were given signified that we all have sinned, and we need guidelines.

Very good again. Remember, Jeus died for your sins. Not Adam's sin. Yours. You sin and it is not because of Adam. The story of Adam and Eve is simpy a story where Adam and Eve represents each and every one of us.

 

[hereIam2Worship]

You've got a bad translation again.
"I am God Almighty, walk before me, and be blameless."

umm...actually thats the King James Version. "blameless" is from the New International Version.

 

[lucaspa]

The Flood was terrible, in that many people were killed. But they were all DYING.

Let's remember that the evidence God left us in His Creation tells us the Flood never happened. Therefore you do not have to justify it as a historical, real event. It's not. So, now the task is to look for the theological lessons in the Flood story. What does the story tell you about God and His relationship to humans?

Death is only a part of the journey.

Good point. Isn't it ironic that Fundamentalism has the same view of life and death as atheism? Both view life as the only game in town and death as the ultimate end.

 

[lucaspa]

umm...actually thats the King James Version. "blameless" is from the New International Version.

But as you pointed out, it's still a bad translation. The context is not that Abraham is "perfect" in the way JohnR7 says. He's not. Nor does he behave perfectly afterward. It's just that God chooses Abraham to make His covenant with.

 

[lucaspa]

If you do not have the holy spirit of God, leading you into all truth, I can see where it would be very easy to be deceived by lucaspa's doctrine. But notice his cheering section is not the christians, they are the target of his attacks. His audience here is the unbeliever and he is putting on a nice command performance for them.

I can see that you are running out of arguments again, John, because you are resorting to personal attacks. You realize you do this everytime you don't have an answer, don't you? You aren't fooling anyone.

 

[hereIam2Worship]

I see that you know the human mind well, lucaspa. I agree though...personal attacks are kind of desperate. A good arguement would include convincing proof that you are right. However, I agree with John. Lucaspa is targetting the unbelivers, and my proof is that he didn't contradict the accusation. Even if he did, that would be considered faulty, for his target is the unbeliever. Also, the "unbeliever" could be considered all those who oppose his ideas.

whoops...that went on for too long...sorry

 

[hereIam2Worship]

Your life is only the first sentence of a book. Your death is only the period.~ Me

Pick up any book and read the first sentence. When analyzing a book, the first sentence usually tells whether the book will be interesting or not. Also, what happens after your life I will be much larger than your life. Think of how many sentences there are in a book. "Death is only the period," means that your death ends your life, just like how a period ends your sentence.

 

[Mish]

Lucaspa is targetting the unbelivers, and my proof is that he didn't contradict the accusation

Lucaspa doesn't need to justifiy himself to you, or anyone else. Don't read more into his post than is really there.

Ps. Sorry Lucaspa, I guess it is not my place to say this really, but yours.

 

[hereIam2Worship]

ok. lets get something straight. We ran completely off subject just to accuse eachother. Isn't the point of this forum to give information on what you know about Creation or Evolution?

 

[Drotar]

ok. lets get something straight. We ran completely off subject just to accuse eachother. Isn't the point of this forum to give information on what you know about Creation or Evolution?

Oh, no sorry you've got the wrong boards. Innocent mistake, happens all the time.

What we do here is specialize in ad hominem attacks, trolling, flaming, repeating ourselves multiple times with increasing emotion within each thread as if that'll change anything, and use so much circular reasoning that we hope the person we're debating with will get so dizzy that they'll just give up.

You must be talking about the way this forum USED to be. Yeah, good times.

 

[hereIam2Worship]

wow...you make it sound torturous...so basically, you guys just hurl insults at eachother...maybe I should find another thread...

 

[hereIam2Worship]

*sigh* To be completely honest...you guys depress me...and if you guys were even trying to move me from my acceptance of Christ's love, then you guys have failed miserably...but then again, so have I.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I see that you know the human mind well, lucaspa. I agree though...personal attacks are kind of desperate.

When dealing with the YECs, personal attacks are usuallythe first club out of their bag.

A good arguement would include convincing proof that you are right.

I've never known lucaspa to not provide a mountain of evidence to back up whatever claim he makes. He's very reliable like that.

However, I agree with John. Lucaspa is targetting the unbelivers, and my proof is that he didn't contradict the accusation. Even if he did, that would be considered faulty, for his target is the unbeliever.

lucaspa talks science in a science forum. What difference does it make about the religions of the people involved?

by a consistent combination of good science and sound theology, lucaspa has earned the respect of many "unbelievers" around here. He talks, we listen, we discuss.

By comparison, JohnR7 talks, we laugh, he gets personal.

Also, the "unbeliever" could be considered all those who oppose his ideas.

For a JohnR7, perhaps, but not lucaspa. He's one of the least dogmatic people I've ever met on these boards. His ideas are well thought out, his ideas are soundly supported and his conclusions are nigh-unassailable.

 

[Nathan Poe]

*sigh* To be completely honest...you guys depress me...and if you guys were even trying to move me from my acceptance of Christ's love, then you guys have failed miserably...but then again, so have I.

And where did you get the idea that we were trying to do that?

 

[Mish]

*sigh* To be completely honest...you guys depress me...and if you guys were even trying to move me from my acceptance of Christ's love, then you guys have failed miserably...but then again, so have I.

To be completely honest to you, I bet no-one gives a monkeys about your faith. What you believe isn't going to be changed by internet people. We are trying to show you that the things you believe are not based in the real world, or on facts or logic. you are still permitten to believe them, go ahead, by all means.

 

[Drotar]

To be completely honest to you, I bet no-one gives a monkeys about your faith. What you believe isn't going to be changed by internet people.

Quite contarily, the men and women on these forums have the ability to profoundly affect a very specific audience of genuine seekers. I was one as a YEC.

The reason why I was perfect bait was because I sought a good debate on science but there was no one I could actually talk to in real life that could have shut me up so fast. Or that could have provided so much evidence. If not for these forums, I would still be a creationist and an ignorant one. For those who take truth SERIOUSLY, the people online, though you cannot see them, are great sources of information.

What are the chances I'd meet so many people with various doctorates online and get to debate with them in real life? For all practical purposes zero. Am I able to engage in a theological debate on dispensationalism as pertaining to the Old Testament saints and the universal church beginning at the proto-evangelion with any of my friends? My pastor hadn't even HEARD of dispensationalsim- before I stinking explained it to him (I consequently left that church from disappointment since he was just really angry the whole time). Online, you can get into some pretty serious stuff. Through these forums, I can go through several weeks worth of high quality real-time discussion in a single day- well I used to be able to here.

I love the internet. If not for these forums- they're like growth horomone man. If not for these, I probably wouldn't even know the different between a Baptist and an evangelical. At this point I can map out all the differences, the doctrinal and theological issues, and the verses that both sides use to argue followed by a rebuttal of one sides'. The internet is a great place to learn once you already have the basics and want to engage in a high quality discussion, because if you try doing that in the real world, you'll be lucky if you get that opportunity a couple times throughout your life. The people you meet here are not only of outstanding education and experience, they are actually willing to talk about it and debate. A fantastic combination that allows you to grow intellectually on the internet at exponential rates if you do it right. TTYL Jesus loves you!

 

[Drotar]

Plus, you have to admit, some of the people here crack me up. Remember Vargatron? LOL! He tried to convince everyone that he was an alien and he left in the middle of the debate when he had nothing else to say because the mothership was calling him.

Good times...

 

[ravenwolf]

i personally think they are both correct. There is no denying the facts of evolution...we are constantly evolving, continents shifting, etc, nothing stays still. Everything changes. But i also believe in creation as well, meaning i believe that there is a creative force behind it all, and within everything. its also ibteresting to note that the succession of events in the creation story in genisis is paralell to the theory of the big bang and the series of successsion in evolution, the only diff. is the bible says this happened in 7 days...but the Bible also says that a day in Gods eyes is like a thousand years, so couldnt the 7 days be symbolic of thousands and thousands of years??? just my thoughts
~ravenwolf

 

[Mish]

Your a Pagan? So what is this creative force, out of curiosity, I'm not very up to speed on Paganism. But if you're a Pagan why do you care about the Bible?

I'm confused, help me out.