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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
the thing about evolution...people would rather accept the fact that they came from monkeys...also...if we really did come from monkeys...y do we still have, monkeys...or for that matter...animals in general...creation is doesn't contradict itself...also...evolution has too many faults...heckles drawings...animal complexity...u name it...
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lucaspa
Legend
The Bible never says that 1) the universewas created perfect or 2) humans were created perfect. The most that it says is Genesis 1 where God pronounces creation as "very good". Not perfect.Underdog77 said:
The second law of thermodynamics causes physical death. It is impossible to keep a system running forever in a perfect state. Eventually it will wear out. In complex plants and animals, this happens because making new cells inevitably involves mistakes in copying the DNA. There are only so many cell divisions before those mistakes add up and the cell dies. It's called "Hayflick's number" and for humans it is about 50 cell doublings.
Notice that Genesis 5 gives a different explanation for the limitation of the human lifespan. There God limits human lifespan to 120 years because "heavenly beings" are lusting after human women. But then Noah breaks that rule and lives to 950!
I am referring to the Bible and the Bible is quite clear that sin causes spiritual death! Try Genesis 2:17. God says Adam will die "in the day" (beyom) he eats the fruit. Now, the prefix "be" when applied to "yom" limits the time to being within a 24 hour day. Basically, beyom means "at the time". But did Adam die a physical death? No, he lived 930 years! But was Adam immediately cut off from God -- spiritual death -- when he ate the fruit? YES!
What you have done is make a man-made theory and decided it is Biblical despite the Biblical evidence against it! Yet you pridefully stick to your theory. Isn't pride a deadly sin?
No, they haven't. It was claimed they were found but the claims have turned out to be wrong and have been retracted.
1. Cursing your bodyguards is not the same as staying safe at home but daring the enemy to attack the troops on the sharp end! Kerry never dared anyone to try to assassinate him so that his bodyguards would have to jump in front of the bullet! Yet Bush dared the enemy to attack and kill American troops! While he sits safe and secure! Remf.
2. We are supposed to change our mind in the face of new information. Not to do so is just plain stubborn to the point of idiocy.
3. You really don't want to get into the question of lying. Besides the lie about WMD (which has gotten nealy 900 Americans and thousands of Iraqis killed), Bush has lied about so many things. The ones I tend to keep track of are the ones concerning science and science funding. Bush promised money to fight AIDS in developing countries but also said that the money would not come from AIDS research. Guess where the money came from as soon as the cameras were off? That one and others are documented in Science.
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lucaspa
Legend
Please go thru the posts here. In fact, all you have to do is look up my posts to find answers to all the issues you have raised.hereIam2Worship said:
Let's just take one thing: "people would rather accept the fact that they came from monkeys...also...if we really did come from monkeys...y do we still have, monkeys"
We accept the truth whether we "would rather" or not. Our preferences have no bearing on how the universe is. I "would rather" New York winters were not so cold. But my "rather" has nothing to do with how winters really are, does it?
Monkeys are humans are evolutionary cousins. Monkeys are not our ancestor. Both monkeys and humans came from primates.
Now, "primates" are not a species but a group of species, with dozens of species. One of those species is the ancestor of humans.
However, even going back to the common ancestor, remember that species split. That is, part of a species is isolated from the rest and face a new environment. This isolated population adapts to the new environment and transform to a new species. So where there was one species you now have two. One goes on to be monkeys and the other goes on (thru a series of more species) to become human.
If you had read Origin of the Species here you would know about this:
http://pages.britishlibrary.net/charles.darwin/texts/origin_6th/origin6th_fm.html
Pay particular attention to the diagram here: http://pages.britishlibrary.net/charles.darwin/texts/origin_6th/origin6th_04.html
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I'm not here to provoke anybody...i'm just saying that...when u look at the world and its complexity...its beauty...its realyl hard to imagine that everytning came from the primordial soup...and i don't mean to sound lovey dovey...but i have a girlfriend...and my feelings towards her are more than just emotions...believing and accepting that eveolution is true...is the same thing as calling love only emotion. love is mre than an emotion. u have to really experience it to even get a glimpse of wat it realyl feels like...no single celled organism can ever create love
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lucaspa
Legend
This is the Argument from Personal Incredulity. It's a poor argument. After all, it's difficult to believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the same thing. Yet you believe it is so. You realize that it is so hard to imagine that Christians actually physically fought over the issue, don't you?hereIam2Worship said:
Then what are they?
That does not follow. We accept evolution is true because the evidence God left us in His Creation leaves us no choice. We do not "believe" evolution.
But single celled organisms can evolve to multicelled organisms and those can evolve a brain and those can have love. "Love" requires a complex brain and single-celled organisms don't have those. However, there is nothing to stop the long series of modifications that lead to a complex brain capable of experiencing love.
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JohnR7
Well-Known Member
The harlot and the apostate church would like you to believe you can not be perfect, but that is not what the Bible says:lucaspa said:
Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
God told Abram to "be thou perfect", he would not tell Abram to do something that he was not able to do.
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
We are told to be perfect, and God would not tell us to do something that we could not do. If you do not have the holy spirit of God, leading you into all truth, I can see where it would be very easy to be deceived by lucaspa's doctrine. But notice his cheering section is not the christians, they are the target of his attacks. His audience here is the unbeliever and he is putting on a nice command performance for them.
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isn't accepting the same thing as believing? but besides from that, u say
i do not doubt that we are complex organisms, and no matter how humans look at things, there is science in everything. but i do have to ask u something...when we learn...do our brains evolve? isn't love just like learning? we experience love and we then we learn to keep it. would u consider the aging process evolving? cuz the older we are...the more knowledge we gain..
yes, i actually do find it intriguing that Christians fought over this...but then again, we all aren't perfect. we don't always believe the same things. ideas aren't universal. even as of now, we are fighting over the issue of evolution and creation. also, wats so hard to believe about the Trinity? or do u think God is a skitzo? and i realyl don't see how the "Argument from Personal Incredulity" is a poor argument. u don't question the feelings of humans? u don't wish that there is more than emotion?
i want to ask u something. wat do u think about biblical prophecies? the rapture. the rapture is a prophecy that Jesus would come to take all Christians to heaven in a blink of an eye. to be honest, I'm interested wat u think.
o by the way, i'm only 13
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No. I accept that the postman comes every day. I accept that I am a man. I accept that I am called Mike. I believe that you are wrong. Differnet things.
That isn't what evolution is, change in our body is not always evolution, when you fall in love that is an "aquired characteristic", and those do not get passed down to the next lot of babies, so they cannot be part of evolution. Lammarkism (which is what you're talking about) was falsified a while ago by the scientist Weissman.
Learning is like cutting the tail of a mouse. Every generation for 100 generations, Weissman cut the tails of some mice, but the 101st generation still has a tail, because the mice had no tails becuase they were cut off, not becuase thier genes told them not to have them. The same for knowledge, you learn how to ride a bike, everyone in your family has for the last 5 generations, but none of your children will just be able to do it, they need to be taught alos, hence learning is not like evolution.
we can tell.
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JohnR7
Well-Known Member
If your interested in the rapture, then allow God to do a work in you, to prepare you for that. To wash, cleanse, sanctify and consecrate you onto Himself.hereIam2Worship said:
So you can be a vessel of honor suitable for every good purpose.
Jesus is coming for a people who are looking for Him to come for them. Packed up, prayed up and ready to go up at anytime.
You do real good for 13.
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i've studied the ten commandments. we know wat they are..but and interesting thing about the ten commandments is that it seems to tell wat we do. for instance, "thou shalt not kill" y would God tell us to not killl? its becuz that we have murderous intent and that we have murdered. the fact that the ten commandments were given signified that we all have sinned, and we need guidelines. as for
God says that Abraham would walk before him. doesn't a shadow trail u, but its always there? God is like abraham's shadow, and "be thou perfect" could also be interpreted as "be thou blameless". God was with Abraham no matter wat, and through human and God's eyes Abraham was doing a just cause for God.
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i know that we should plan for the rapture, but live as if it was going to be today. i know that our lives will be seen at the bema seat. and some of us will acquire crowns of glory. we will throw them at the feet of Jesus and we will spend a millenium in heaven.
haha thanks. i don't know if that was sarcasm or ur real thoughts. well u could just say i have alot of time to think about these things...
haha thanks. i don't know if that was sarcasm or ur real thoughts. well u could just say i have alot of time to think about these things...
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Drotar
Guest
Everybody dies. Who cares if someone lives for 30 years shorter than they might have otherwise? The Flood was terrible, in that many people were killed. But they were all DYING. Better that their lives be shortened than that they spread their corruption farther than it had been. Take a reading of Sodom and Gomorrah. The men of the city saw two male angels, and as a mob they tried to break down the door to rape them. And that just happened to be what we're told about only because it related to the angels. The pre-flood society was WORSE- to such a degree that the men who were stopped in Sodom and Gomorrah were only temporarily blinded. This wickedness deserved DEATH in the preflood society. Not the same, not equal, but WORSE. We have a hint from the Scriptures that what made this society so wicked was that they participated in prideful contests to see who could kill the most people- descendants of Cain (this is a deductive exegesis of the text).Arikay said:
Yes the Flood was terrible, but to shorten the lives of already dying people to prevent further pain and corruption, if you're a just and holy God, isn't as bad as it seems to us. Death is only a part of the journey.
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Drotar
Guest
You're not mormon are you hereIam2worship? The whole "be thou perfect" thing hints at it with their doctrine of exaltation, or theosis.
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i agree, but i also see his point. The point is, why does God punish people for what he already know that they are going to do. God allows us the freedom to sin or not to sin. I know its hard to understand, because when good knows the future, He knows what is going to happen, but when you throw choice in there it gets confusing...
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Drotar
Guest
Those verses are an example of being commanded to do something that we CAN'T do. The point of those verses is not to command them to actually be perfect, but to learn to rely on God for sanctificative purposes, not themselves.JohnR7 said:
Actually I am cheering most of the time, I just don't post everything I'm thinking.JohnR7 said:
NO- it is not Christians that are the subject of his attacks, it is creationism that is scourging the name of Christianity. Lucaspa isn't anymore guilty of attacking Christians by addressing creationism than you would be of attacking monotheists for addressing Islam.
The cheering section is from the unbeliever because they happen to be FORCED to rest on evolution. The Christian has the choice. We're not going to become creationists and reject reality out of spite to the unbeliever, if that's what you're wondering. We're going to do what's right and side with reality. We're not changing our position because someone else has. It's about truth, right and wrong. Absolutes.
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Drotar
Guest
Not really. You'll be Calvinist when you're older and perhaps get a glimpse of Edwards on the determination of the will. Keep investigating into this and you'll find yourself inevitably on our side of the field. Those who study science eventually become evolutionists, theistic or atheistic. Those who study free will and foreordination eventually become Calvinist. These are undeniable trends- not just coincidence.hereIam2Worship said:
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lucaspa
Legend
No. You "believe" when you cannot "prove". That is, when you don't have objective, intersubjective evidence. You accept when you do have such evidence. Thus, I accept that humans have 46 chromosomes but I believe that Bush is a bad President.hereIam2Worship said:
No. Evolution happens to populations, not individuals. Now, "evolve" has been corrupted so that it is used in any situation where there is change. But technically, our brains change, not evolve.
The aging process is development. It applies to an individual. Again, evolution happens to populations. Populations change over generations.
Because whether you can believe it or not has nothing to do with reality. The Argument from Personal Incredulity is about your limitations in imagination, not about what is real.
Let's take another example: Schroedinger's Cat. In this thought experiment, Schroedinger had a cat in a closed box where a block of cyanide would be released at the decay of a Uranium. According to quantum mechanics, as long as you don't open the box, the cat is both dead and alive at the same time. That is hard to imagine, isn't it? A cat is either dead or it is alive. But it can't be both at the same time. Yet it turns out that this is exactly what happens. Recent experiments using atoms instead of cats shows that indeed both conditions exist at once. In a variation of this, it is shown that an electrical current runs in both directions in a wire at the same time.
Now, it's difficult for you to imagine how natural selection can produce complex designs. But it does. We can go into detail exactly how it does.
Most of the prophecies were written after the fact. That is, the event already happened when the authors had the characters "prophecy" it. This was accepted practice of the day. Read Herodotus and his History of the Pelopponesian War for the same thing in a secular setting. So it's not deception but simply a different way of doing things than we do today.
None of this is part of science. It is part of Christian belief. From the Nicean Creed:
" He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end."
Personally, I'm not holding my breath. I have no expectation that this will happen in my lifetime or the lifetime of my children.
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