Creation or Evolution?

[lucaspa]

Isn't that encouraging. So God indirectly created not only cancer but all diseases.

Why is that so different from indirectly creating all life? The proximate causes are chemistry and evolution; the belief is that the ultimate cause is God.

More excuses for an alleged Divine designer.....

Who is all powerful, God or the second L of T ? So the alleged Almighty in his omniscience and omnipotence was powerless to snap his all powerful cosmic fingers in order to avoid the unavoidable byproduct of the universal laws from causing deadly diseases ?

You like a puppetmaster God, don't you? What you are proposing is a control freak that steps in and makes the universe perfectly nice for us, with nothing "bad" in it. What you miss is that such a control freak god is not one that anyone can worship. It's a tryrant micromanipulating our lives to get only what that god wants.

I don't like a puppetmaster god. Anymore than I want to be a control freak father and micromanipulate the lives of my daughers so that nothing "bad" ever happens to them. Being a control freak isn't love; it's control and self-absorption.

In order for our lives to have meaning, consequences have to be real. And that includes consequences in the universe. Anything else isn't "real", but a make believe fantasy world where the puppetmaster pulls the strings. It appears that God loved us enough not to be a puppetmaster, but create a complete universe where our lives can indeed have meaning. I for one am thankful for that. If you would prefer a tyrant god that will manipulate your life, then you are SOL, and I'm glad.

 

[lucaspa]

IMO,
How the earth began is one question to ask the creator, when we meet.
I will take the creation view as part of the story. God doesn't lie.

But you are quite willing to have Him lie in His Creation, aren't you? What does science study? God's Creation. So, you think He lied in the evidence He left us in His Creation that tells us 1) the universe and earth is very old, 2) each species was not individually created, and 3) humans evolved from earlier species?

Or is it possible that humans have, in their human pride, that their human literal interpretation of the creation stories is the lie? That God meant something entirely different for those stories?

Never except one story as pure fact unless you hear it from god.

Since we hear evolution from God, I don't see the problem.

Humans can misunderstand and misinterpret any combonations of fact.

But if we misunderstand God's Creation, we have God in the Creation to tell us we have done so. What have you got to tell you that you have misunderstood the creation stories?

Believe until it is disproved.

That's exactly what we are doing with evolution. We accept it until it is disproved. Creationism has already been disproved, so we don't accept it any longer.

I have trouble believing in drastic macro-evolution. The one celled bacteria combining with another to become a organism. Current science states no findings of improving natural birth defects in our lifetime.

1. That you have trouble believing in evolution is a comment about you, not about evolution. It describes your limitations, not that of the data or theory.
2. Variations among individuals go in both directions. Birth defects are not usually genetic but rather mistakes during embryonic development. However, we have seen advantageous mutations among individuals in our lifetime.
2. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/information/apolipoprotein.html New apo-lipoprotein mutation that adds antioxidant activity.
3. Sequence of favorable mutations in E. coli http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/96/7/3807
4. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/346/20/1513 Mutation giving extra dense bones
5. Karl C. Diller, William A. Gilbert, and Thomas D. Kocher. Selective Sweeps in the Human Genome: A Starting Point for Identifying Genetic Differences Between Modern Humans and Chimpanzees. Mol. Biol. Evol. 19(12):2342–2345. 2002
6. Pardis C. Sabeti, David E. Reich et. al. Detecting recent positive selection
in the human genome from haplotype structure. Nature 419 24 OCTOBER 2002.
7 Hollox EJ, Poulter M, Zvarik M, Ferak V, Krause A, Jenkins T, Saha N, Kozlov AI,
Swallow DM. Am J Hum Genet. 2001 Jan;68(1):160-172. Epub 2000 Nov 28. Lactase haplotype diversity in the Old World.
8. Gilad Y, Rosenberg S, Przeworski M, Lancet D, Skorecki K. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2002 Jan 22;99(2):862-7. Evidence for positive selection and population structure at the human MAO-A gene.
9. Mundy NI, Cook S. Mol Biol Evol. 2003 Jun 27. Positive Selection During the Diversification of Class I Vomeronasal Receptor-Like (V1RL) Genes, Putative Pheromone Receptor Genes, in Human and Primate Evolution.
10. Swanson WJ, Nielsen R, Yang Q. Mol Biol Evol. 2003 Jan;20(1):18-20. Pervasive adaptive evolution in Mammalian fertilization proteins.
11 Zhang J, Webb DM, Podlaha O. Genetics. 2002 Dec;162(4):1825-35. Accelerated protein evolution and origins of human-specific features: Foxp2 as an example.
12. Torgerson DG, Kulathinal RJ, Singh RS. Mol Biol Evol. 2002 Nov;19(11):1973-80. Mammalian sperm proteins are rapidly evolving: evidence of positive selection in
functionally diverse genes.

 

[larry lunchpail]

lucaspa, why dont you write a book on this subject, then instead of repeating your self every day, just say: "buy my book!"

im dead serious, or have you already perhaps?

 

[franklin]

Why is that so different from indirectly creating all life? The proximate causes are chemistry and evolution; the belief is that the ultimate cause is God.

If you say that the universe has a cause but God does not require a cause is a contradiction. I think we've been around this corner before but you still have not been able to give a logical explanation for an uncaused God. Maybe he or she or it was indirectly created? That could be the other option.


You like a puppetmaster God, don't you? What you are proposing is a control freak that steps in and makes the universe perfectly nice for us, with nothing "bad" in it. What you miss is that such a control freak god is not one that anyone can worship. It's a tryrant micromanipulating our lives to get only what that god wants.

When did I ever say I like such a God? That is the God I recently walked away from. However, It seems very evident that there are millions of people on this planet who are worshiping that very micromanipulative God as we speak only difference is He uses a different means of control, it's called fear and coersion. If you don't believe in him you get tormented in hell forever. Do you have some proof that your so called God exists? I'm willing to examine your evidence.

I don't like a puppetmaster god. Anymore than I want to be a control freak father and micromanipulate the lives of my daughers so that nothing "bad" ever happens to them. Being a control freak isn't love; it's control and self-absorption.

I don't know nothing about the age of your children but assuming they are only little children and not knowing any better would you just let them run out in the middle of the street in front of a truck without trying to save them from harm? Or would you just say, you don't want to be a puppetmaster dad?

I wouldn't want such a god either, so what kind of a God do you want and what kind of a God do you think you do have ? Or is it just a belief that you have ?

In order for our lives to have meaning, consequences have to be real. And that includes consequences in the universe. Anything else isn't "real", but a make believe fantasy world where the puppetmaster pulls the strings.

Hmmm, but I thought that the God you believe in is the one pulling some sort of strings by supernaturally holding the universe all together ?


It appears that God loved us enough not to be a puppetmaster, but create a complete universe where our lives can indeed have meaning. I for one am thankful for that.

Do you have a book that desribes this God you believe in ?


If you would prefer a tyrant god that will manipulate your life, then you are SOL, and I'm glad.

No I never said I wanted a cosmic tyrant as a God that is why I am no longer a Christian and now an atheist. BTW, I'm not big on abbreviations, I usually spell out what I say, so what is SOL ?

 

[larry lunchpail]

yooooooou aaaaaaaare [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] out of luck, and bitter to boot.

 

[Starstreak M86]

*ahem*

Let me kindly give you guys a friendly nudge to my scientific Christian website that proves that an Old Earth Creation interperetation of the Bible is the correct one:

God and Science.org:
http://godandscience.org/

http://godandscience.org/youngearth/dayagedefense.html

http://godandscience.org/apologetics/day-age.html

The "Young Earth Creation" idea is a heresy that sprung up during Medieval times:
http://godandscience.org/youngearth/youngearth.html

http://godandscience.org/youngearth/genesis.html

Not to mention the fact that a 24-hour day is only relative to the rotation of Earth about it's axis. If the Earth had not been created yet, how could God be working on a day that is only 24 hours because of the speed that this planet alone rotates on it's axis?

 

[Underdog77]

All of the stuff on the site either doesn't pertain to me or is crappy logic, such as the geneaologies. What foo foo junk. Just look at it and think about it for a while, maybe the correct answer will become obvious .

The only one I can't explain at the moment is the one concerning Mark 10:6 (I think that was the reference). I'm consulting my resources and my pastor right now.

 

[krissi]

Hi I am a firm believer that the theory of evolution is is blasphemous

 

[krissi]

I also think darwins theory of surviavl of the fittest is incorrect. why because if evolution and survival go hand in hand and we were supposedly evolved from apes than why are the apes still alive? as well when the california condor almost became extinct why didnt it adapt to its surroundings (evolve) to save itself from extinction? if these two theories were true than extinction wouldn't be a problem now would it.

 

[krissi]

Newbie
Blessings: 2
Reputation: 10
Posts: 2
creation is correct! why because evolution contradicts the bible. don't you think if evolution were true tat the almighty God would have made reference to it in his Word. alos, why didn't the large land beasts (dinosaurs) during the flood adapt. are there any more dinosaurs around? No I also think darwins theory of survival of the fittest is incorrect. why because if evolution and survival of the fittest go hand in hand and we were supposedly evolved from apes than why are the apes still alive? as well when the california condor almost became extinct why didnt it adapt to its surroundings (evolve) to save itself from extinction? if these two theories were true than extinction wouldn't be a problem now would it.

 

[krissi]

grace and peace be unto you all and may God bless you all! Goodbye for now

 

[Faith In God]

Hi I am a firm believer that the theory of evolution is is blasphemous

wow. go you.

 

[Non-Sequitur]

why because if evolution and survival go hand in hand and we were supposedly evolved from apes than why are the apes still alive?

Sorry, but statements like this just show that you don't know what the theory of evolution actually is.

http://www.talkorigins.org/

This is a good place to start learning. The faqs alone should clear up most of your misconceptions.

 

[Tomk80]

I also think darwins theory of surviavl of the fittest is incorrect. why because if evolution and survival go hand in hand and we were supposedly evolved from apes than why are the apes still alive? as well when the california condor almost became extinct why didnt it adapt to its surroundings (evolve) to save itself from extinction? if these two theories were true than extinction wouldn't be a problem now would it.

So, following your argument against evolution logically we can also only have one sort of dog, since if a labrador exists, how can there still be Saint Bernards?
Now, we observe nature. We see multiple sorts of dogs, so your falsification of evolution has been falsified.

Evolution does not follow a linear path, but is like a bush or tree, multiple species branch of from a single species. You have most likely been fooled into this argument by a creationist website, and are attacking a strawman of the theory, in stead of the theory itself. Please, study the theory using documents written by evolutionists first, so you know what evolutionists are saying and aren't that easily fooled anymore. Non-sequitur gave a good website for this.

 

[Tomk80]

creation is correct! why because evolution contradicts the bible. don't you think if evolution were true tat the almighty God would have made reference to it in his Word.

Go talk to some of the theistic evolutionists on this board.

alos, why didn't the large land beasts (dinosaurs) during the flood adapt. are there any more dinosaurs around? No

Were they in the arc? Why aren't they here now. You seem to be thinking that adaptation is some sort of conscious effort made by the creature itself. This idea is false. Study evolution first, then attack it in stead of the other way around.

I also think darwins theory of survival of the fittest is incorrect. why because if evolution and survival of the fittest go hand in hand and we were supposedly evolved from apes than why are the apes still alive? [/quote]

Already answered.

as well when the california condor almost became extinct why didnt it adapt to its surroundings (evolve) to save itself from extinction? if these two theories were true than extinction wouldn't be a problem now would it.

Yes, they would. Species go extinct if they aren't able to adapt. No problem there. Again, please study the theory first before you attack it.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Hi I am a firm believer that the theory of evolution is is blasphemous

If that statement is true, then your religion has been proved false. That should alert you.

I also think darwins theory of surviavl of the fittest is incorrect. why because if evolution and survival go hand in hand and we were supposedly evolved from apes than why are the apes still alive?

My first thought was, "you can't possibly be serious." But I guess you are.

Humans evolved along with other apes from earlier apes. The analogy between diversity via evolution by Tom with the idea of the branching out of a bush is a very good one.

creation is correct! why because evolution contradicts the bible.

Evolution contradicts the way you interpret the Bible, but not necessarily the Bible itself. Again, if your statement there is true, then your religion has been conclusively proved false. However, keep in mind that the large majority of Christians accept evolution and acknowledge that literalism can be a dangerous thing to their religion.

don't you think if evolution were true tat the almighty God would have made reference to it in his Word.

Don't you think that if atomic theory were true that the almighty god would have made reference to it in his word? Since it's not, does that mean atomic theory is false?

Hypothetically if the Bible were actually valid and did not mention evolution, my guess would be that it would be a complicated concept to not only convey but also for readers to understand.

alos, why didn't the large land beasts (dinosaurs) during the flood adapt. are there any more dinosaurs around?

Two reasons: (1) dinosaurs did not exist contemporaneously with humans and (2) the flood never happened.

Paleontologists have found dinosaurs to exist exclusively during the Mesozoic era from roughly 250 to 65 million years ago. Their extinction was likely partially a result of the effects of a meteorite impact, the crater of which is located near the tip of the Yucatan peninsula.

as well when the california condor almost became extinct why didnt it adapt to its surroundings (evolve) to save itself from extinction?

Evolution is not a conscious process on the part of the organism or the population of which it is a part. If our atmostphere suddenly became highly concentrated in gases poisonous to us, we wouldn't simply will ourselves to be able to breathe it.

if these two theories were true than extinction wouldn't be a problem now would it.

Evolution practically requires extinction to occur. Otherwise evolution wouldn't really occur if populations of organisms with unfavorable traits for their environments would not be weeded out.

 

[The Son of Him]

Evolution and Science are the gift from God to men.
Thanks to HIM we evoluted to become who we are !!!! To spread truth and science to men to brig hope to mankind.

 

[Gracchus]

Evolution and Science are the gift from God to men.
Thanks to HIM we evoluted to become who we are !!!! To spread truth and science to men to brig hope to mankind.

Evoluted?

 

[The Son of Him]

Evoluted?

That is the evolution of the word "evolved".

But some day we will all speak the language of the FATHER in our death beds.

 

[Gracchus]

That is the evolution of the word "evolved".

But some day we will all speak the language of the FATHER in our death beds.

ROFL!