Creation or Evolution?

[Nathan David]

Alright Ron, I've posted this before (althought it may have been at a different site)

Let's say we are Christian who believe in evolution. We believe the God used evolution over a large time span (some say millions others say billions).

1) as Christians we believe that sin causes death, both spiritual and physical.

Not all Christians believe that. Most Christians believe that sin causes only spiritual death, not physical.

 

[lucaspa]

Not all Christians believe that. Most Christians believe that sin causes only spiritual death, not physical.

Right. So there goes his first premise. Syllogistic logic only works if the premises are true. Since the premise isn't true, the conclusion can't be.

 

[Underdog77]

Lucuspa- If sin does not cause physical death, then what does? Did God (the God who is perfect) create unperfect beings? That is either contridicting or false.

The question of sin causing physical and spiritual death is Biblical and since we are talking theology it would only make since to refer to the Bible.

Also (as a side note) Bush did not lie. Weapons of Mass Destruction have recently been found. Besides I would rather have a man who does what he says than Kerry, a man who curses out his body guards when KERRY HIMSELF fell on the ski slope. I wouldn't have a lying president like Kerry who can't make up his mind and tells lies almost as fast as Gore.

 

[Nathan David]

Lucuspa- If sin does not cause physical death, then what does? Did God (the God who is perfect) create unperfect beings? That is either contridicting or false.

Why? Where does it say God would only create perfect beings? For that matter, why does dying make a being imperfect?

The question of sin causing physical and spiritual death is Biblical

According to you. Many theologians disagree on the physical death part.

Also (as a side note) Bush did not lie. Weapons of Mass Destruction have recently been found.

No, they haven't. Who's lying now?

Besides I would rather have a man who does what he says than Kerry, a man who curses out his body guards when KERRY HIMSELF fell on the ski slope.

That story is false.

I wouldn't have a lying president like Kerry who can't make up his mind and tells lies almost as fast as Gore.

Neither Kerry nor Gore are known for lying. Bush, on the other hand, tells them all the time. You've been listening to too much Limbaugh. Name one lie Kerry has told. As a further challenge, name a lie he has told which has led to the unnecessary deaths of 826 Americans.

 

[Tomk80]

Lucuspa- If sin does not cause physical death, then what does? Did God (the God who is perfect) create unperfect beings? That is either contridicting or false.

This I do not understand. Why is death imperfect, in stead of part of life? If death wasn't part of life, we wouldn't have to eat, would we? I mean, even vegetarians kill living organisms.
Yes, death is scary and sad for us as humans. But why is it imperfect?

 

[Underdog77]

NathanDavid- Wasn't Gore who claimed he had the idea of the Internet? hmmmmm Sounds fishy to me. And you may say those deathes were unnecessary but I doubt many Iraqis do. I also believe many Afghanis are thankful the freedom they've been given. Aren't you thankful for the thousands who died in the past to obtain and preserve our freedom? Or do you think it was unnecessary?

Kerry's problem is that he can't decide what is truth. Therefore he can't act on it. "Did I really throw the medals over the fence or did I do it figuratively? Did I even have medals at all!? I just don't know ". (That's not a quote from Kerry, just a parody of what could have went through his mind.)

 

[Tomk80]

NathanDavid- Wasn't Gore who claimed he had the idea of the Internet? hmmmmm Sounds fishy to me. And you may say those deathes were unnecessary but I doubt many Iraqis do. I also believe many Afghanis are thankful the freedom they've been given. Aren't you thankful for the thousands who died in the past to obtain and preserve our freedom? Or do you think it was unnecessary?

Kerry's problem is that he can't decide what is truth. Therefore he can't act on it. "Did I really throw the medals over the fence or did I do it figuratively? Did I even have medals at all!? I just don't know ". (That's not a quote from Kerry, just a parody of what could have went through his mind.)

Sorry to disrupt your fun guys but euhh

:topic:

We have a political forum you know

 

[Arikay]

No, gore didn't claim he invented the internet.
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.htm

Wow, you actually read a post, maybe you can go back and read some other posts so we don't have to keep answering the same questions over and over. It would be nice since people have bothered to take the time to write them.

NathanDavid- Wasn't Gore who claimed he had the idea of the Internet? hmmmmm Sounds fishy to me. And you may say those deathes were unnecessary but I doubt many Iraqis do. I also believe many Afghanis are thankful the freedom they've been given. Aren't you thankful for the thousands who died in the past to obtain and preserve our freedom? Or do you think it was unnecessary?

Kerry's problem is that he can't decide what is truth. Therefore he can't act on it. "Did I really throw the medals over the fence or did I do it figuratively? Did I even have medals at all!? I just don't know ". (That's not a quote from Kerry, just a parody of what could have went through his mind.)

 

[Drotar]

This I do not understand. Why is death imperfect, in stead of part of life? If death wasn't part of life, we wouldn't have to eat, would we? I mean, even vegetarians kill living organisms.
Yes, death is scary and sad for us as humans. But why is it imperfect?

Even if you eat fruit all your life, you're not killing the plant but you're killing the cells that make up the fruit. BREATHING kills anaerobic bacteria in your mouth. Action results in death- period. Action results in entropy. Much action necessary to sustain life depends on entropy.

 

[Aeschylus]

No, gore didn't claim he invented the internet.
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.htm

Wow, you actually read a post, maybe you can go back and read some other posts so we don't have to keep answering the same questions over and over. It would be nice since people have bothered to take the time to write them.

Perhaps he didn't invent the internet, but ask yourself this: where would computer science be without the Al-Gore-ithm?

 

[Arikay]

I don't think creationists believe those things are really "alive." Since they suggest that being a vegitarian is not killing anything.

Earlier I mentioned to underdog that a lack of death in eden is contradictory to gods command to be fruitful and multiple. His answer was that god created eden expecting the fall, even needing the fall. Thus god did not create a perfect paradise but one that was specifically designed to increase in entropy.
Not to mention the theological problems of god designing the world for a fall and then punishing people because they did what god designed them too.

Even if you eat fruit all your life, you're not killing the plant but you're killing the cells that make up the fruit. BREATHING kills anaerobic bacteria in your mouth. Action results in death- period. Action results in entropy. Much action necessary to sustain life depends on entropy.

 

[Ron21647]

Alright Ron, I've posted this before (althought it may have been at a different site)

Let's say we are Christian who believe in evolution. We believe the God used evolution over a large time span (some say millions others say billions).

1) as Christians we believe that sin causes death, both spiritual and physical
2) the first sin was created by Adam and Eve and through them sin was brought
into the world and along with that sin came death
3) if evolution was used, then there was death in the world before sin. This
makes the belief that 'sin brings death' wrong
4) if that belief is wrong then Christ's death (which the purpose was to relieve
us of our sin and as result save us from spiritual death) was in vain. He
could relieve us of our sin but that would not save us spiritually.
5) therefore Christ (though historically we know he existed, died, and was resurrected) died for nothing and your saving faith is not saving and is therefore false.

I did not make the statement "could destroy your faith" meaning it rob you, Ron, personally of your ability to believe what you do. What I meant was evolutionists can use the step-by-step deductions that I just did to show to the world that Christianity (the belief that Christ can save your soul if your merely ask Him to) is false if evolution is true.

Although Lucaspa already said everything I would have said, I'm posting this anyway. I just hadn't looked at this thread recently.

No I don't believe that Adam's sin brought physical death into the world. For one thing, God had said "This day shall you surely die", but Adam lived for another 900 and some years. So by your literalist interpretation, this is wrong. I do believe that Adam (and Eve) suffered spiritual death at that point.

Physical death had been present for hundreds of millions of years before Adam. We have fossils that can be dated by several independent means that died long before any date we could accept for Adam.

I actually have heard people say that the 2nd law of thermodynamics didn't come into existence until after the fall. I am still trying to figure out how any of the chemical reactions necessary for life could have taken place, because they depend on the 2nd law.

Did your animals in the garden eat anything? Did they eliminate their waste, or were they all constipated? Did their waste decay, or did it just sit all around in smelly piles? sounds like quite a perfect garden, doesn't it?

As far as your points are concerned,

point 1 - spiritual death only
point 2 - add the word spiritual in front of death
point 3 - correct
point 4 - wrong - if Christ's death relieves of our sin, it then relieves us of spiritual death. It certainly doesn't relieve us of physical death, we all die sometime. If it isn't physical death in point 4, why would it be in points 1 and 2?
point 5 - wrong, because the rest of your preceding points are wrong.

Ron

 

[Ron21647]

I did not make the statement "could destroy your faith" meaning it rob you, Ron, personally of your ability to believe what you do. What I meant was evolutionists can use the step-by-step deductions that I just did to show to the world that Christianity (the belief that Christ can save your soul if your merely ask Him to) is false if evolution is true.

I'll leave this one up to the atheists on the board. Does this statement have anything to do with your not believing in Christianity?

and Underdog, I thought it was in poor taste to take a good discussion and throw in some totally off topic political stuff. Was this an example that you were losing so decided to change the subject and hope everyone else would too? not that you were on your way to winning that one either.....

Ron

 

[Valkhorn]

As an open Atheist, I'll gladly take you up on that. I don't believe in Christianity because it just doesn't answer the questions I have in life. It also doesn't give me any more meaning to it than I already have myself, and to me it's not a great enough explaination to anything.

I don't think it's also a one or the other thing. Evolution does not debunk the idea of an original creation, although it does debunk the possibility that every single species is just created magically out of thin air.

Will we ever find out where the universe came from? Probably not, but we can sure try to find out. To me though, it doesn't really matter much because the Universe operates fine on its own, and doesn't need a God to explain why things happen. There's always an explaination to the how and why if you only look objectively around for it.

I do not believe in a creation because frankly, even if there was one the creator left a long time ago. It sure isn't creating anything else right now. Also, if there was a creator, then it's not exempt from creation itself. Something must have created the creator if everything was created - and that's an endless loop.

I always felt that if you trim the fat off - the God notion so to speak, that the Universe is pretty much the same as it was. This is a big clue to why I choose Atheism.

I'm also a happier person with it as well

 

[Split Rock]

(snip) And you may say those deathes were unnecessary but I doubt many Iraqis do.

Just out of curiosity, are these the same Iraqis that dance around the bodies of dead Americans chanting "Down with the USA!!" ?

 

[Tomk80]

I did not make the statement "could destroy your faith" meaning it rob you, Ron, personally of your ability to believe what you do. What I meant was evolutionists can use the step-by-step deductions that I just did to show to the world that Christianity (the belief that Christ can save your soul if your merely ask Him to) is false if evolution is true.

Okay, I messed up the order in your post a little bit. I'll take the step-by-step deductions which are below now and see whether I can. I'm agnostic, so of course I'm dying to know.

Let's say we are Christian who believe in evolution. We believe the God used evolution over a large time span (some say millions others say billions).

1) as Christians we believe that sin causes death, both spiritual and physical

According to at least some christians here, your first premise is already wrong. According to them, sin will only bring about spiritual death, not physical death.

2) the first sin was created by Adam and Eve and through them sin was brought into the world and along with that sin came death.

According to at least some of the christians here, Adam and Eve are metaphorical for each human being. Each human being brings sin into the world, Adam and Eve don't carry that honour by themselves.

3) if evolution was used, then there was death in the world before sin. This makes the belief that 'sin brings death' wrong.

No, even if 1 and 2 were correct, this does not follow. If evolution is true, there was physical death before sin. Spiritual death is not an issue, since spiritual death and sin are theological concepts and not a subject dealt with by the ToE.

4) if that belief is wrong then Christ's death (which the purpose was to relieve us of our sin and as result save us from spiritual death) was in vain. He could relieve us of our sin but that would not save us spiritually.

Since ToE does not make an assumption about spiritual death, whether Christ's death was in vain is also not a logical conclusion of the former premises.

5) therefore Christ (though historically we know he existed, died, and was resurrected) died for nothing and your saving faith is not saving and is therefore false.

And again, you already went wrong on your third argument. Hence, arguments #4 and #5 come tumbling down rather drastically.

So, arguments #1 and #2 are not necessarily true. But even if they would be, argument #3 does not logically follow from argument #1 and #2. Since both #4 and #5 are arguments based on argument #3, they tumble down accordingly. Hence, your logical argument against christianity has failed miserably and I'm still agnostic.

 

[Nathan David]

Aren't you thankful for the thousands who died in the past to obtain and preserve our freedom? Or do you think it was unnecessary?

Yes I am, but the war in Iraq had nothing to do with preserving our freedom. (Neither did Vietnam).

 

[Drotar]

I don't think creationists believe those things are really "alive." Since they suggest that being a vegitarian is not killing anything.

Earlier I mentioned to underdog that a lack of death in eden is contradictory to gods command to be fruitful and multiple. His answer was that god created eden expecting the fall, even needing the fall. Thus god did not create a perfect paradise but one that was specifically designed to increase in entropy.
Not to mention the theological problems of god designing the world for a fall and then punishing people because they did what god designed them too.

There are not theological problems with that. In fact, anyone who tells you otherwise has some learning to do.

It's not like Satan just kind of snuck in the garden, exited the angelic realm and entered this physical world without God knowing about it. He PLACED Satan in the garden.

Why? Because something without contrast is, for all practical purposes nothing. If we never fell, Christ would never have died and we would never have learned pain and hate, and never have learned love and joy.

Without a hell, the heighth of pain, one cannot appreciate or comprehend heaven, the heighth of ecstasy. Would we know the love of God? No, we would not have experienced it.

Isn't hell cruel? It sounds cruel because many are under the misconception that STUPID theologians have drilled in everyone's brains over the past several centuries. Hell is NOT God torturing people for eternity. It is Him letting them go and leaving them in a place that He prepared for them. All it is is His dismissing them.

If you're unclean, you cannot dwell in a holy place with a holy God. There's nothing else He CAN do with you. There is one way to have your impurities taken away and that is the atonement of Jesus Christ. If this cleansing is denied, He CANNOT let an unclean thing into a holy place. I'm sorry if this sounds mean, but He gives everyone the chance to change and if you do not cleanse your impurities in the blood of Christ, it's not that He doesn't want you, it's He CANNOT have you. It's not about wanting to, it's about ability. If you're unholy, you can't enter a holy place. It's that simple really. TTYL Jesus loves you!

 

[Drotar]

Just thought you should know that you are a jewel in the rough, Arikay. And that I will become famous soon enough.

 

[Arikay]

The punishment I was talking about was the physical punishment that god slapped on Adam and Eve (and thus everyone else) and the snake for doing what he expected and designed them to do. Then later punishing everyone in a global flood for doing what he expected and designed them to do. (this is of course bassed on a biblical belief like Underdogs).

There are not theological problems with that. In fact, anyone who tells you otherwise has some learning to do.

It's not like Satan just kind of snuck in the garden, exited the angelic realm and entered this physical world without God knowing about it. He PLACED Satan in the garden.

Why? Because something without contrast is, for all practical purposes nothing. If we never fell, Christ would never have died and we would never have learned pain and hate, and never have learned love and joy.

Without a hell, the heighth of pain, one cannot appreciate or comprehend heaven, the heighth of ecstasy. Would we know the love of God? No, we would not have experienced it.

Isn't hell cruel? It sounds cruel because many are under the misconception that STUPID theologians have drilled in everyone's brains over the past several centuries. Hell is NOT God torturing people for eternity. It is Him letting them go and leaving them in a place that He prepared for them. All it is is His dismissing them.

If you're unclean, you cannot dwell in a holy place with a holy God. There's nothing else He CAN do with you. There is one way to have your impurities taken away and that is the atonement of Jesus Christ. If this cleansing is denied, He CANNOT let an unclean thing into a holy place. I'm sorry if this sounds mean, but He gives everyone the chance to change and if you do not cleanse your impurities in the blood of Christ, it's not that He doesn't want you, it's He CANNOT have you. It's not about wanting to, it's about ability. If you're unholy, you can't enter a holy place. It's that simple really. TTYL Jesus loves you!