Creation or Evolution? How do we know which is true?

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Your highest authority is the stories told by man and then you bend scripture to fit that story.

You're free to believe what you want about God's word, it's your God-given freedom to do so... or maybe it isn't, maybe your free will somehow evolved from an amoeba as well...

The Theory of Evolution, supported by scientific research, is hardly "stories told by man." Evolutionary biologists have studied various aspects of evolution by forming and testing hypotheses as well as constructing theories based on evidence from the field or laboratory.

My faith comes from what I have read in God's word. My understanding of science comes from other sources. Those who want to learn science from the Bible are, of course, free to do so.
 
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trophy33

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Your highest authority is the stories told by man and then you bend scripture to fit that story.

You're free to believe what you want about God's word, it's your God-given freedom to do so... or maybe it isn't, maybe your free will somehow evolved from an amoeba as well...
Genesis doest not support 6 24hour days creationism from nothing.

And reality does not support 6,000 years old universe.
 
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NobleMouse

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The Theory of Evolution, supported by scientific research, is hardly "stories told by man." Evolutionary biologists have studied various aspects of evolution by forming and testing hypotheses as well as constructing theories based on evidence from the field or laboratory.

My faith comes from what I have read in God's word. My understanding of science comes from other sources. Those who want to learn science from the Bible are, of course, free to do so.
Evolution isn't even a scientific theory.

As per Wikipedia, "A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can be repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results. Where possible, theories are tested under controlled conditions in an experiment."

Also per Wikipedia on evolution, "Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations... All life on Earth shares a last universal common ancestor (LUCA)."

NEVER has it been observed, measured, repeated by experiment, etc... where all life arose from a LUCA. This is only speculated and concluded, which is conjecture (definition of conjecture: "an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information").

Evolution is nothing more than a mental framework, a paradigm, a presuppositional 'lens' by which evidence is interpreted. The fossil record does not support evolution from a LUCA, nor does DNA analysis. All the fossil record shows is already complex life with various life forms going extinct over time and similarities in DNA only shows that similar DNA sequence results in similar design, function, and purpose. The evidence is not mutually exclusive to the idea that all life grew in complexity through an unguided, random process. What is observable is that life that already exists can have variability, but evolution does not explain how that life arose in the first place. God's word does.
 
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NobleMouse

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Genesis doest not support 6 24hour days creationism from nothing.

And reality does not support 6,000 years old universe.
Genesis DOES support creation over 6 days and creation is affirmed throughout the rest of the Bible. It is what it says and a straight-forward interpretation of it reconciles with all other passages of scripture that refer to creation. Your idea of reality is making assumptions and in linear fashion you extrapolate what you think you know (and ignoring everything you don't know) to invent a different beginning than the one God's word tells. I'll just go with what God says.
 
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trophy33

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Genesis DOES support creation over 6 days

Which order of creation do you believe in, the order of Gen 1 or the order of Gen 2?

If "day" is literal how could Adam name 9 million species in 24 hours?

If "day" is literal, what does it mean that God created all in one day (Gen 2:4)?

How is it possible that Eden is described in the present tense, in Genesis (i.e. during the life of Moses)?

How could Adam get lonely in just one day? Why is he saying "at last!" when seeing Eve?

How do you deal with the Universe, the planet and covering waters being created before the first day?
 
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Evolution isn't even a scientific theory.

As per Wikipedia, "A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can be repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results. Where possible, theories are tested under controlled conditions in an experiment."

Also per Wikipedia on evolution, "Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations... All life on Earth shares a last universal common ancestor (LUCA)."

NEVER has it been observed, measured, repeated by experiment, etc... where all life arose from a LUCA. This is only speculated and concluded, which is conjecture (definition of conjecture: "an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information").

Evolution is nothing more than a mental framework, a paradigm, a presuppositional 'lens' by which evidence is interpreted. The fossil record does not support evolution from a LUCA, nor does DNA analysis. All the fossil record shows is already complex life with various life forms going extinct over time and similarities in DNA only shows that similar DNA sequence results in similar design, function, and purpose. The evidence is not mutually exclusive to the idea that all life grew in complexity through an unguided, random process. What is observable is that life that already exists can have variability, but evolution does not explain how that life arose in the first place. God's word does.

You say that "evolution isn't even a scientific theory." Yet you own source, Wikipedia, references "the scientific theory of evolution by natural selection." So, unless you are saying that your own source is incorrect, it is a scientific theory.
 
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NobleMouse

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Which order of creation do you believe in, the order of Gen 1 or the order of Gen 2?

If "day" is literal how could Adam name 9 million species in 24 hours?

If "day" is literal, what does it mean that God created all in one day (Gen 2:4)?

How is it possible that Eden is described in the present tense, in Genesis (i.e. during the life of Moses)?

How could Adam get lonely in just one day? Why is he saying "at last!" when seeing Eve?

How do you deal with the Universe, the planet and covering waters being created before the first day?
Gen 1 and Gen 2 are referring to the same creation event, from two different perspectives... the first is the broader and the second is more specific to the creation of Adam & Eve. Oddly enough it appears Jesus believed in creation and that Adam/Eve were real people without getting hung up on things like grammar. Look at your questions and see if they are built on assumptions. Why wouldn't Adam feel left out or say "at last!" and what was the tone and how was he feeling when he said it? Do you know? If everything Adam saw had a male/female match, then perhaps he WOULD have felt left out and/or lonely in just a short time. You and I don't know. Your arguments remain speculative, hollow, and driven by naturalistic assumptions for which you are not omniscient to know what you do know relative to what you don't know and what is needed to be known to know the right answer. Since this is the position for all of us, it would seem the wiser path is to trust what the Lord has told us, that it is all we need to know for now, and that it is true.

What's going to be your argument for the staff of Moses turning into a serpent then back into a staff? What natural/physical law allows for a dead stick to become a living biological creature, then resume being a dead stick. Surely you know these things. Maybe you don't believe this happened either and if so then it is of no surprise you don't believe creation happened the way it is written, and thus you stand on shifting grounds with no rational basis for why you really believe (or don't believe) anything from the Bible.
 
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NobleMouse

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You say that "evolution isn't even a scientific theory." Yet you own source, Wikipedia, references "the scientific theory of evolution by natural selection." So, unless you are saying that your own source is incorrect, it is a scientific theory.
Yes it is CALLED a scientific theory, but by it's own definition it fails that test. The only element of truth within the realm of evolution that is true is that it IS TRUE that life does have variability in adapting to conditions and the environment... people can have different colored skin, hair, eyes, width of noses, etc... but all people are people. Natural selection and random mutation do influence this. What HAS NOT been observed is this nonsense where all life arose from a LUCA over a period of millions or billions of years. That's not observational science - it's an unsupported hypothesis. I can say I have 4 legs and call my arms legs, but that doesn't mean I have 4 legs, it just means that my definition of leg has been incorrectly applied to my arms and I am wrong. Sorry ToE, you are really an Unsupported Hypothesis of Evolution (UHoE).
 
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Yes it is CALLED a scientific theory, but by it's own definition it fails that test. The only element of truth within the realm of evolution that is true is that it IS TRUE that life does have variability in adapting to conditions and the environment... people can have different colored skin, hair, eyes, width of noses, etc... but all people are people. Natural selection and random mutation do influence this. What HAS NOT been observed is this nonsense where all life arose from a LUCA over a period of millions or billions of years. That's not observational science - it's an unsupported hypothesis. I can say I have 4 legs and call my arms legs, but that doesn't mean I have 4 legs, it just means that my definition of leg has been incorrectly applied to my arms and I am wrong. Sorry ToE, you are really an Unsupported Hypothesis of Evolution (UHoE).

In your opinion. Your own source says otherwise.
 
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NobleMouse

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In your opinion. Your own source says otherwise.
Well God's word also tells of a different beginning so fortunately I don't have to rely on just my opinion like many others here are doing. I'd wish you the best of luck but even luck does not triumph over God's word.
 
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Well God's word also tells of a different beginning so fortunately I don't have to rely on just my opinion like many others here are doing. I'd wish you the best of luck but even luck does not triumph over God's word.

God's Word tells me that God was ultimately responsible for creating everything. Science tells me how it was done.

As I said earlier, if you want to believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis you are certainly entitled to do so.
 
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NobleMouse

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God's Word tells me that God was ultimately responsible for creating everything. Science tells me how it was done.

As I said earlier, if you want to believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis you are certainly entitled to do so.
Ha - science doesn't tell you anything other than that it's been wrong over and over and over. Be sure to archive that.
 
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Ha - science doesn't tell you anything other than that it's been wrong over and over and over. Be sure to archive that.
You go ahead and think that. BTW, I presume that you have not been vaccinated against various diseases. After all, if science gets things wrong “over and over and over,” why would you get a vaccine that was produced as a result of scientific research?
 
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The Barbarian

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Evolution isn't even a scientific theory.

Right. It's an observed phenomenon. Evolutionary theory is the scientific theory that explains it.

As per Wikipedia, "A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can be repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results. Where possible, theories are tested under controlled conditions in an experiment."

Right. It's why the theory is a theory, rather than a hypothesis. Every hypothesis must be testable. So evolutionary theory made some testable claims:

1. Fitness tends to increase in a population in a new environment. Confirmed

2. There should be all sorts of transitional forms in the fossil record. As YE creationist Kurt Wise admits, the many transitional forms are "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory." Confirmed

3. There should be feathered dinosaurs in the fossil record. Confirmed.

4. The DNA of dinosaurs should be most like that of birds, rather than like that of modern reptiles. Experimentally Confirmed.

5. There should be transitional forms between humans and other primates. Confirmed

6. There should be lots of vague boundaries between species. Confirmed.

7. Genetics should show common ancestry of all living things on Earth. Confirmed.

And so on...

Lots more if anyone needs to see more.

Also per Wikipedia on evolution, "Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations...

Yep. Change in allele frequency in populations over time.

All life on Earth shares a last universal common ancestor (LUCA)."

Yep. See above.

NEVER has it been observed, measured, repeated by experiment, etc... where all life arose from a LUCA.

Several different ways. Smith and Margolis experimentally veryified this by DNA analysis:
F1.large.jpg



This is only speculated and concluded, which is conjecture (definition of conjecture: "an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information").

See above. You've been misled about that. You're relying far too much on your own opinion, and not enough on the evidence.

Evolution is nothing more than a mental framework, a paradigm, a presuppositional 'lens' by which evidence is interpreted.

It's directly observed. Changes in allele frequency occur constantly, and are frequently recorded. Even speciation has been directly observed. Would you like me to show you that?

The fossil record does not support evolution from a LUCA,

Your fellow YE creationist, Kurt Wise thinks it does. But he has a doctorate in paleontology, so he perhaps knows a little more than you do about it.

nor does DNA analysis.

See above. That's just for animals, but it works for all known living things. Would you like me to show you that?

All the fossil record shows is already complex life

Nope. The oldest fossils are single cells with no nucleus. Nucleated cells show up later. And then, in the Precambrian, we start to see multi-celled organisms, that diversify widely in the Cambrian. You were misled on that.

with various life forms going extinct over time and similarities in DNA only shows that similar DNA sequence results in similar design, function, and purpose.

If you were right, sharks and dolphins would have very similar DNA, as would bats and birds (but not ostriches and penguins). But penguins and eagles have closer DNA, and dolphins and bats have closer DNA, confirming evolutionary theory.

The evidence is not mutually exclusive to the idea that all life grew in complexity through an unguided, random process.

Darwin's great discovery was that it is not a random process.

What is observable is that life that already exists can have variability, but evolution does not explain how that life arose in the first place.

The theory makes no predictions about the way life began. It assumes living things, and explains how they diversified. Darwin wrote that God created the first living things.

God's word does.

Well, you got that right, at least. Darwin would approve.
 
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NobleMouse

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You go ahead and think that. BTW, I presume that you have not been vaccinated against various diseases. After all, if science gets things wrong “over and over and over,” why would you get a vaccine that was produced as a result of scientific research?
Are you kidding? I've been vaccinated before (say for the flu) and still got a bad case of the flu, plus I've read numerous stories of people actually dying of the flu vaccine and other vaccines. I've also read numerous stories and know personally of a family whose son is autistic and showed no signs of being on the autistic spectrum prior to receiving the inundation of vaccines pushed on kids these days.

Further, there was a point where scientists believed the world was a million years old, then million(s), then a billion, then two billion, and now we're at something like 4.54 billion years old.

Observational science is one thing and carries with it a degree of certainty, though still not a guarantee of 100% perfect/complete understanding. Now step into the realm of never-observed, unmeasurable, untestable, unverifiable hypothesis of evolution from a LUCA, plus given the error-laden record of past scientific assertions then YES I have no confidence in this hypothesis... just on that basis alone (that is, even if God's word said nothing about creation I would still be very reluctant to accept the idea of all life evolving from a LUCA over billions of years). But since God's word clearly states He created distinct life and this is affirmed throughout scripture, then the deal is sealed for me - God's word is my source of authority and so I am not surprised to find that evolution from a LUCA remains nothing more than a mental framework, a paradigm, a "lens" by which fossils and biological organisms are interpreted.
 
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Are you kidding? I've been vaccinated before (say for the flu) and still got a bad case of the flu, plus I've read numerous stories of people actually dying of the flu vaccine and other vaccines. I've also read numerous stories and know personally of a family whose son is autistic and showed no signs of being on the autistic spectrum prior to receiving the inundation of vaccines pushed on kids these days.

You didn’t answer my question. Why are you getting these vaccines if scientists are getting things wrong over and over and over. And if you got the flu after getting a vaccine it just means that you caught a different strain of the flu.

Further, there was a point where scientists believed the world was a million years old, then million(s), then a billion, then two billion, and now we're at something like 4.54 billion years old.

Because scientists have learned over time, and the theories get modified to reflect the latest knowledge.

Observational science is one thing and carries with it a degree of certainty, though still not a guarantee of 100% perfect/complete understanding. Now step into the realm of never-observed, unmeasurable, untestable, unverifiable hypothesis of evolution from a LUCA, plus given the error-laden record of past scientific assertions then YES I have no confidence in this hypothesis... just on that basis alone (that is, even if God's word said nothing about creation I would still be very reluctant to accept the idea of all life evolving from a LUCA over billions of years). But since God's word clearly states He created distinct life and this is affirmed throughout scripture, then the deal is sealed for me - God's word is my source of authority and so I am not surprised to find that evolution from a LUCA remains nothing more than a mental framework, a paradigm, a "lens" by which fossils and biological organisms are interpreted.

And as I have said multiple times, if you want to believe in a literal reading of Genesis that is your business. I do not. That doesn’t make me any less a Christian.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You go ahead and think that. BTW, I presume that you have not been vaccinated against various diseases. After all, if science gets things wrong “over and over and over,” why would you get a vaccine that was produced as a result of scientific research?
I 'guess' you never read Revelation chapter 18;
specifically pharmakeia will deceive the whole world.

OR you read a false translation / believed a false interpretation of it ?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Are you kidding? I've been vaccinated before (say for the flu) and still got a bad case of the flu, plus I've read numerous stories of people actually dying of the flu vaccine and other vaccines. I've also read numerous stories and know personally of a family whose son is autistic and showed no signs of being on the autistic spectrum prior to receiving the inundation of vaccines pushed on kids these days.
Ripley's Believe it or Not Story - He's probably not kidding (see previous post of mine).

For people to learn the truth, they have to be willing. Almost no one is.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Both sides have provided evidence(s) to support their claims. If our lives depend on the truth, then how do we know which is true? What questions should people ask to help find out the truth for themselves?
Ask all the questions that come to mind.
It is not "what" questions to ask that matter, it is WHO someone asks.... see?

If anyone lacks wisdom, let him ask God, ........ JAMES, etc, throughout Scripture.

God is not man that He could lie.... He can be TRUSTED COMPLETELY ! :) HALLELUYAH !
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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QUOTE="wonderkins, post: 73430620, member: 400210"]If you can't believe the very first couple chapters of the Bible, how can you trust anything else after?

The Bible doesn't support evolution. What you believe about creation absolutely affects what you believe about the rest of God's Word. Genesis says God created everything. It does not say he created the monkey and waited for it to turn in to man.

What a strange thought that is. Just read Job 38 to the end of the book. Or read Psalms. How can one come to the conclusion that when God speaks, things don't happen? Creation obeys God. Supporting evolution is like suggesting God didn't know what he was doing.

Evolution requires death. When did death enter creation? After Adam sinned. You cannot support evolution with scripture. It's not there.[/QUOTE


Most people never read the Bible, let alone seek Yahweh the Creator, let alone BELIEVE HIM !

SHALOM !
SHABBAT SHALOM from JESUS to you and your household TODAY!
 
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