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Creation or Evolution? BORING!!!
- Thread starter Andrew Sneddon
- Start date
Hey steady on there now, some of those videophiles and cartoonites are scientists
Let's not be hasty and rush into any false dichotomies (trichotomies?)
There are for sure some very bright people who have been seduced by the Vice of Video Games. I personally dont get it, i tried playing a couple of them and it just totally does nothing for me.
I will assiduluously avoid the Vice of False Trichotomization. if i can.
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I have no problem with whales originating on land as long I could look at the evidence in the flesh/bone and do all the tests required to confirm that the possibility that whales originated on land is accurate.
When I see evolution I don't see a lack of a designer I see a layed out plan and designer. Why does every one think that christians believe that thunder and lightning is magic and, there isn't really electricity running through those cables it's tiny tiny people carrying the current really really quickly. It doesn't say anywhere in the bible that you should ignore science I know a very intelligent Maths professor that teaches at Oxford and is also christian who could discuss the finer scientific points with you folks for hours but I've only just started uni so am not qualified so my faith in evolution is not firm because I don't have the qualifications, just to recap.
I have no problem with evolution I believe it happend, I believe there is evolution in the species going on today but if some one shows me a very small pile of bones with the very base of a skull and says there's proof that they are relatives because I imagined what the rest of it looked like.
The picture lay out is very helpful and it does make sence but I'm still quite sceptical of labeling things sooooooo accurately. If I knew how they found that out and could conduct the experiments myself then I would believe but I have no interest in fossils so I'll just ask God when I meet him. To me it looks like a logical progression but how do I know that they aren't four different creatures all with similar structure?
What are christian fundamentalists doing to end the earth??? I get the muslim thing cause it says that if they kill themselfs they get lots of virgins and what not in "heaven" but not sure what christians have been doing.
If christians are blowing themselfs up then they are "christians"(they havn't read the bible) ergo, not Christians.
Hespera I'm just starting my first year of sports and exercise science in september so thats probably a subject that will be looked down upon here what with all these paleontologists in the room but I have no problems with the human body but maybe you could ask me in a year after I've started uni wether I think it's voodoo cause maybe it will go completely against what it says in the bible.
And thou shalt say when ADP + P + energy = ATP there shall be much more of the heavy lifting, and so it was. Matt. Ch2
No, that sounds about right.
Are you saying that making the connection between one fossil to another fossil sounds like voodoo? If so well yes I have no interest in fossils why would I know that much about them or how to detect them? Just in the way if I asked you how to train someone to actively use their central nervous system to activate more muscle fibers you would have no idea. I'm guessing of course. Do you lift weights? I digress.
I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH EVOLUTION as I've said from the beginning. I just don't think it dissproves God and personally I don't have the confidence to start labelling creatures relatives unless I'm damn sure of it and can prove the results to myself.
When I see evolution I don't see a lack of a designer I see a layed out plan and designer. Why does every one think that christians believe that thunder and lightning is magic and, there isn't really electricity running through those cables it's tiny tiny people carrying the current really really quickly. It doesn't say anywhere in the bible that you should ignore science I know a very intelligent Maths professor that teaches at Oxford and is also christian who could discuss the finer scientific points with you folks for hours but I've only just started uni so am not qualified so my faith in evolution is not firm because I don't have the qualifications, just to recap.
I have no problem with evolution I believe it happend, I believe there is evolution in the species going on today but if some one shows me a very small pile of bones with the very base of a skull and says there's proof that they are relatives because I imagined what the rest of it looked like.
The picture lay out is very helpful and it does make sence but I'm still quite sceptical of labeling things sooooooo accurately. If I knew how they found that out and could conduct the experiments myself then I would believe but I have no interest in fossils so I'll just ask God when I meet him. To me it looks like a logical progression but how do I know that they aren't four different creatures all with similar structure?
What are christian fundamentalists doing to end the earth??? I get the muslim thing cause it says that if they kill themselfs they get lots of virgins and what not in "heaven" but not sure what christians have been doing.
If christians are blowing themselfs up then they are "christians"(they havn't read the bible) ergo, not Christians.
Hespera I'm just starting my first year of sports and exercise science in september so thats probably a subject that will be looked down upon here what with all these paleontologists in the room but I have no problems with the human body but maybe you could ask me in a year after I've started uni wether I think it's voodoo cause maybe it will go completely against what it says in the bible.
And thou shalt say when ADP + P + energy = ATP there shall be much more of the heavy lifting, and so it was. Matt. Ch2
No, that sounds about right.
Are you saying that making the connection between one fossil to another fossil sounds like voodoo? If so well yes I have no interest in fossils why would I know that much about them or how to detect them? Just in the way if I asked you how to train someone to actively use their central nervous system to activate more muscle fibers you would have no idea. I'm guessing of course. Do you lift weights? I digress.
I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH EVOLUTION as I've said from the beginning. I just don't think it dissproves God and personally I don't have the confidence to start labelling creatures relatives unless I'm damn sure of it and can prove the results to myself.
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Cabal
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Worth bearing in mind that while you identified two positions in your OP, it is not simply a case of Christians vs atheists (creation vs evolution). There are plenty of Christian evolutionists here, myself included. Most of the atheists here are also atheists because of things that happened in their personal lives - not because "evolution disproves God" - it doesn't - science can't prove or disprove God.
That still doesn't stop us arguing about it though
As far as I know, in my time on CF there have been a couple of people here who have come from a position of fundamentalism to a more moderate one regarding contemporary science.
No offence, but not knowing how the methodology works and then saying "I'll ask God when I meet him" is pretty darn lazy. This topic obviously concerned you enough to make the thread and respond, so why is so much to ask that you read up on the basics of how things like palaeontology, genetics, dating methods etc work?
For one thing, you need to know about multiple methods because that's how we ARE so sure of the conclusions drawn. One method can give good results, e.g. fossil record, but once you start comparing it with the genetic and geological data and start getting matching results you know you're onto something.
No, many of us wouldn't know the finer points of your field - but we wouldn't necessarily shrug it off and say "I'm not convinced - but I can't be bothered learning how it works, I'll ask God when I die" either. We'd either ask someone who knows (yourself) or read up on it, if we wanted to know more.
Nothing wrong with that, but reading up on the groundwork that has already been done is a good starting point.
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For the argument that nobody ever changes their view on these boards:
I did. Do I not count?
I did. Do I not count?
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Well, the militia movement of the USA is largely a fundamentalist Christian movement, with sprinkles of neo-nazism. Those people are not only nuts, but very dangerous. Other examples of what we would call terrorists within fundamentalist circles in the US include the Branch Davidians. (A note here: I am aware of the controversy regarding the ATF raid on the Waco ranch. I am also aware that the Branch Davidians were stockpiling weapons.)
Fundamentalists have said on this very forum that they long for the rapture, the end of the world. Combine that with them expecting to be rewarded for their faith after death, and you've got yourself a dangerous situation.
Fundamentalist Christians aren't suicide bombing anyone (yet) because they don't have to. They already have so much power in the most militant nation on the earth (the US) that there simply is no need for that particular branch of terror.
You can call a "no true Scotsman" fallacy on the fundamentalists I'm talking about, but fact remains. They see themselves as much as Christians as you do. These are the people I'm determined to fight, tooth and nail. I generally do so at home in Sweden by limiting the influence of the Christian right with my democratic vote. I will also take every opportunity to openly ridicule them, and to help educate children in science. After all, a rational mind is the best deterrent for fundamentalism.
Please note: I don't hate Christians. I am not against Christians. I'm an atheist, and do not agree with Christians on certain matters, but I fully respect their right to practice their religion. I am against fundamentalism in all guises. Creationism is just one form of fundamentalism, one that mainly attacks the minds of people. This is the one form I can actively fight on the internet.
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CoderHead
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I'm not saying that's what you believe (although at one point it's what pretty much everybody believed). I'm saying that unless some people in the past had shunned the "Goddidit" mentality and started asking questions, we wouldn't be past that stage today.
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You do make a number of kind of unfortunate assumptions that i hope you will get past. i would not, dont see why anyone would look down on you for wanting to go into sports medicine. sounds cool to me!
i do look down on people who arrogantly spout nonsense and stubbornly stick to it with unreasonable arguments no matter how obviously they are wrong. You dont seem in that dept at all!
When you get into anatomy and physiology, I hope you will find time and energy for a class on comparative vertebrate anatomy. its not an easy class, but so many things about the quesitons you ask will be made so clear to you!
With reagrad to one small piece telling you what the rest of the animal looked like, that is true in varying degrees! Its a cartoon situaiton where they reproduce the whole animal from one bone, tho.
some skeletal parts are highly diagnostic, if you have that you KNOW it is a marsupial, say.
yuou wont get the flesh with the bones of a fossil, but one thing you will learn is how one can figure out exactly how the muscles were, from the skeleton. as in the way they can recreate a face from a skull.
one more thing... dont worry about anyone thinking they can disprove god! that is for total crackpots. mental cases. no serious person thinks he can prove, or disprove god.
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corvus_corax
Naclist Hierophant and Prophet
Well then, look
As do many of your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ
I'm pretty sure NOBODY actually believes this about Christians.
Although some Christians DO, in fact, make claims just as ridiculous (i.e. satyrs, cockatrices and unicorns existed FOR REAL)
I don't have the "qualifications" either, but I don't have faith in evolution either.
I just accept the evidence
(Waiting for an AV1611VET fracking DERAIL at this point)
Evolution states NOTHING about your Deity.
Period.
Despite what the Creationi.....errrr....Creation Scient......Errr Scientific Creationis..errrrrr..."Intelligent Design" advocates state.
NOTHING about your deity.
Any statements otherwise are nothing more than misunderstanding or blatant lies.
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plindboe
Senior Member
Notice that no one in this thread thinks it does, theist and atheist alike.
People who claim that evolution is atheistic and an effort to disprove God tend to be creationists. It's a propaganda technique they use to discourage their fellow christians from accepting the theory, and it has absolutely nothing to do with what the theory actually says. They try to make it out to be a 'christianity vs. atheism' issue, ignoring the vast numbers of christians out there who have absolutely no problem with the theory. In reality it's a 'certain literal interpretation of certain verses of the Bible vs. science' issue.
Peter
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Could I just say that my origional post was not related to whether or not evolution is right or wrong it was, I don't think that this discussion will be solved over an internet chat room. I did not say that I was knowlegeble about fossils and what not in the origional post, then a big discussion started I thought that I might defend what was said and state that I wasn't a creationist and creating excuses for them.
I'll check with my course to see if I have any modules on the subject cause I am interested in how they rebuild skeletal muscle from fossils but at the moment I just don't have the motivation to go out of my way because at the moment I'm more focused on my weight lifting and discovering more information to help me in my goals for sport.
Just to say that I would need to not only read up on the information on fossils but be in a position to prove or dissprove it myself. I would need to become a patientologist with I'm not really interested in. But I'll do a bit of reading over the next year at uni and see what I think.
Uk2se I wish you all the best in you discussions with the so called christians and that sort of fundamentalism should be challenged and fought. But please don't let any discussions you have with the "christians" even slightly twist your view of God and what it says in the bible about what God is really like.
Those people are not christians and I know you weren't trying to be but I find it offensive to have those people labeled as Christians because it causes people to harden against the Christan idea.
I'll check with my course to see if I have any modules on the subject cause I am interested in how they rebuild skeletal muscle from fossils but at the moment I just don't have the motivation to go out of my way because at the moment I'm more focused on my weight lifting and discovering more information to help me in my goals for sport.
Just to say that I would need to not only read up on the information on fossils but be in a position to prove or dissprove it myself. I would need to become a patientologist with I'm not really interested in. But I'll do a bit of reading over the next year at uni and see what I think.
Uk2se I wish you all the best in you discussions with the so called christians and that sort of fundamentalism should be challenged and fought. But please don't let any discussions you have with the "christians" even slightly twist your view of God and what it says in the bible about what God is really like.
Those people are not christians and I know you weren't trying to be but I find it offensive to have those people labeled as Christians because it causes people to harden against the Christan idea.
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Sorry there seems to be some missunderstanding created by myself with regards to proving or disproving God through evolution. I did not mean to be saying that you can prove or disprove God because it is a personal faith in God so there is no problem with your corrections there but my impression from talking to certain people on the internet and in Oxford is that the bible flies in the face of what science is saying and how can any rationaly thinking intelligent sane person believe in it. But that is my personal experiences and bad writing that has led to confusion. Sorry folks.
By the way Hespera I got your message but couldn't reply by PM, no worries it was mostly my incoheirent writting.
If you ever want to get into weights and gym I could give you some help on getting you started. It's awesome once you get into it and know what your doing, you learn lots about yourself what your body can do and how it works it's pretty cool.
Plus you get a massive endorphin rush after a big lift it's awseome and if your training for balence and symetry it can cure alot of ackes and pains that are riddling the general publics backs, shoulders, hips and knees.
By the way Hespera I got your message but couldn't reply by PM, no worries it was mostly my incoheirent writting.
If you ever want to get into weights and gym I could give you some help on getting you started. It's awesome once you get into it and know what your doing, you learn lots about yourself what your body can do and how it works it's pretty cool.
Plus you get a massive endorphin rush after a big lift it's awseome
and if your training for balence and symetry it can cure alot of ackes and pains that are riddling the general publics backs, shoulders, hips and knees.
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Notice that no one in this thread thinks it does, theist and atheist alike.
People who claim that evolution is atheistic and an effort to disprove God tend to be creationists. It's a propaganda technique they use to discourage their fellow christians from accepting the theory, and it has absolutely nothing to do with what the theory actually says. They try to make it out to be a 'christianity vs. atheism' issue, ignoring the vast numbers of christians out there who have absolutely no problem with the theory. In reality it's a 'certain literal interpretation of certain verses of the Bible vs. science' issue.
Peter
Speak for yourself.
I think evolution, along with general biology, physics, chemistry, and logic all do their own independent things to disprove the Christian God. (Though I will admit they do nothing against a general god)
My logic goes as following (Summarized and not formal logic)
1. Evolution disproves the biblical genesis of the earth as well as a literal flood.
2. A non-literal interpretation of genesis, or an interpretation so far from the literal one to account for evolution is not compatible with the Bible as a whole.
3. So an acceptance evolution leads to a belief in Christianity not compatible with the bible (Also not compatible with the written records of the founding fathers if that is what your into- orthodox guys)
4. A non-biblical belief in Christianity has no rational basis to exist.
5. So an acceptance of evolution leads to irrational religion.
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JGL53
Senior Veteran
All correct, IMO. Rather than being an atheist necessarily, a person is free to be a deist or some sort of idealist pantheist and not have any problem with the findings of science, ancient or modern.
But Christianity, and other organized monotheisms, are based in the belief in supernatural intervention in the natural order - e.g., special revelation - and thus are completely incompatible with science, which utterly discounts the concept of supernatural intervention because it has to in order to be science.
Or at least that's the way I see it.
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tansy
Senior Member
I realise that you're probably comparing the hard evidence of science with the more intangible evidence of God - however, I would suggest that people's faith would be severely undermined if there were no evidence at all..if it appeared that God never lived up to His promises...but it is the testimony of many, that God does live up to His promises (however intangible, unlikely or whatever this might appear to some).
Also, I don't think that God is based necessarily on emotion and fear of the unknown
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tansy
Senior Member
It's usually an accumulation of things which confirm stuff about God, (and He even manages to convince people of His existence to some who are actually setting out to DISprove the Bible, for example...so, if anything, they are biased the other way.)
But, anyhow, probably getting off topic now
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