Creation is a fact so is evolution

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Carey

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Yes species evolve but never into another species all together.

What came first The chicken not the egg.

Where there cavemen yes but God considered them animals and did not put Humans on earth until way later.

www.creationevidence.org is interesting

Our science proves itself wrong constantly Einstiens theory has recently been shot down and Issac Newtons theories on Gravity as well. By Moti Milgram search it.

Carbon dating is not a complete science either.

we just found 3 more planets in our solar system.

The thing that has never been proven wrong is the Bible.
 
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127Rockledge

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I don't understand the full reasoning of your post.

Nobody is trying to prove the bible "wrong" because it would be inherently difficult to do so.

Much as proving a whole text book would be nearly impossible. Certain ideas and areas may be disproven, but the book in and of itself is only a vessel that carries bits of information.

People will always try to discount what cannot be proven/disproven. Such a moral and ethical messages of the bible.

The rest of your post is very random and has no support structure.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Yes species evolve but never into another species all together.

looking at the genetics of the canids and at ring species shows this to be utterly wrong.

Carbon dating is not a complete science either.

i don't understand why YECists even discuss C14 dating. the fact that it has been recalibrated by tree rings and is very well substantiated by ice core data, coral rings, varves as well as dendrochronology makes it one of the very best dating techniques.

and the phrase "complete science", what does that possibly mean? vs incomplete? or partial? or false?
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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Yes species evolve but never into another species all together.
Speciation has been observed. Most creationists already acknowledge this fact.

What came first The chicken not the egg.
Who cares. That is nothing more then a parlor game of philosophy and has nothing to do wiht biological science.
You could ask "Which came first the pizza or the pizza oven?" It's just silly.


Our science proves itself wrong constantly Einstiens theory has recently been shot down and Issac Newtons theories on Gravity as well. By Moti Milgram search it.
Science is self correcting.
Which thoery of Einstein's has been "shot down". Please elaborate.

Dr. Moti Milgrom's work provides an alteranate theory to explain gravity- it has not disproved General Relativity. Gravity has never been adequately explained. There is nothing shocking or earth shattering about competing thoeries. THAT is how science works- kind of a natrual seleciton of ideas (hehehe).

Carbon dating is not a complete science either.
Please elaborate.

we just found 3 more planets in our solar system.
Actually they are dwarf planets. This affects evolutionary theory how exactly?
The thing that has never been proven wrong is the Bible.
Science is not determined to disprove the bible.
Why do you think they are at odds?
 
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vossler

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scientists and philosophers nw agree that the egg came first, BTW...
because what laid the first chicken egg wasn't a chiken, it was a pre-chicken transitional form
LOL! Thanks, that made my day. ^_^

I believe some of the birds that we call chickens today are post-chicken transitional forms.
 
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Smidlee

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Speciation has been observed. Most creationists already acknowledge this fact.
Boxhorn used the weaker form of definition (Mayr's) of "species" and not the stronger form (Dobzhansky's) since this is all he has to work with. Even some evolutionist (online) has admitted that talkorigin's examples are poor. Talkorigins is mostly a evolution-thumpers website.
 
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Brennan

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Carey said:
Our science proves itself wrong constantly Einstiens theory has recently been shot down and Issac Newtons theories on Gravity as well. By Moti Milgram search it.

Carbon dating is not a complete science either.

we just found 3 more planets in our solar system.
Moti Milgrom has suggested an alternative hypothsesis for explaining the structure of the universe - an alternative to theories of Dark Matter. Even if proved right (which seems unlikely in the face of recent discoveries) he would not prove Einstein 'wrong', neither did Einstein prove Newton 'wrong'. Scientific theories are constantly refined in the light of new evidence - that is the whole idea.

Why do you say that about carbon dating?

Er, so? We expect to find loads more distant bodies, this is no surprise to anyone.
 
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chaoschristian

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I don't know, was it as pgp predicted, to evolve? ;)

no, silly, to get to the other side

where she and several of her species settled into a distinct ecological niche and overtime bifurcated

punctuated equilibrium, its the root of all humor
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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Boxhorn used the weaker form of definition (Mayr's) of "species" and not the stronger form (Dobzhansky's) since this is all he has to work with. Even some evolutionist (online) has admitted that talkorigin's examples are poor. Talkorigins is mostly a evolution-thumpers website.
Doesn't that just go to show that there is no clear and concise definition of "species". Biology is full of lumpers and splitters - those that want to divide taxa, and those that want to unite them. The term "species" is as artificial as the term "planet" (I am refering to the new "dwarf planet" category recently created).

Species is a man made concept. Unlike elements, for example, populations of organisms do not fall into discrete and easily separated categories (like gold from copper). Instead, we find things like clines ( ring species are a type of cline) which really make defining species in any meaningful and precise way impossible.

Is Pluto a planet or a dwarf planet? In the end it doesn't matter since what ever we call it is arbirary.

Thank you for guiding me to out that "species" is an arbitrary and artificial tool created by humans to categorize what we see in nature. It is, afterall, human nature to put things in catetories - even if those categories aren't really there.

Dobzhansky "The biological species is the largest and most inclusive Mendelian population" (a "Mendelian population is a reproductive community of sexual and crossfertilizing individuals which share in a common gene pool").

Ernst Mayr "Species are groups of actually or potentially interbreeding natural populations, which are reproductively isolated from other such groups."

Yep, we are really splitting hairs here (see it's good to cite your sources) , it is hard to say which one is "stronger".

Speaking of citing your sources, could you provide reference for "some evolutionist (online) has admitted that talkorigin's examples are poor", and please let me know if ALL the observed instances of speciation fail if applied to Dobzhansky's criteria? Thanks in advance.

 
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Late_Cretaceous

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Dobzhansky's strong definition is, "That stage of evolutionary progress at which the once actually or potentially interbreeding array of forms becomes segregated into two or more arrays which are physiologically incapable of interbreeding."

The weak definition, proposed by Mayr, is, "Groups of actually or potentially interbreeding natural populations which are reproductively isolated from other such groups.'


Smildee failed to mention where he got this bizzarre concept of a "strong definition" vs a "weak definition" of the term species. So I did so for him.

That website - called Alternative Science (alternativescience.com) promotes such things as Psychokinsesis, cold fusion, remote viewing, lottery ESP, perpetual motion and something called "no brainer" (where - get this - the notion that the human brain is not necessary)

So, as you can see, Alternative Science is not very mainstream. I am not dismissing it all together, I am just saying that this stuff is not widely accepted for a number of reasons.

In Alternative Sicence's section of speciation we find this earth shattering difference in the definitions proposed by two different scientists early in the 20th century. The entire difference hinges on slightly different usage of the english language. Mayr uses the term "reproductively isolated" and Dobzhansky uses the term "physiologically incapable" of reproducing.

Now, Alternative Science, tries to make the point that there is a huge difference between the two terms and reproductive isolation is simply geographical, where as physiologically incapable means that reproduction is impossible.

However, Mayr himself addresses THIS VERY ISSUE in his paper What is a Species, and What is Not? (by Ernst Mayr Originally Published in Philosophy of Science, Vol. 63 (June 1996) pp. 262-277.)



"Among the attributes members of a species share, the only ones that are of crucial significance for the species definition are those which serve the biological purpose of the species, that is, the protection of a harmonious gene pool. These attributes were named by Dobzhansky (1935) isolating mechanisms. It is immaterial whether or not the term isolating mechanism was well chosen, nor is it important whether one places the stress on the prevention of interbreeding with non-conspecific individuals or the facilitation ("recognition") of breeding with conspecific individuals. The concept I have just developed is articulated in the so-called biological species definition: "Species are groups of interbreeding natural populations that are reproductively isolated from other such groups." The isolating mechanism by which reproductive isolation is effected are properties of individuals. Geographic isolation therefore does not qualify as an isolating mechanism. "
SO you see Dr. Mayr demonstrates that by reproductive isolation, he is not refering to geographical barriers but physiological ones as well when he says "properties of individuals".

Therefore there is NO REAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO DEFINITIONS EXCEPT FOR CHOICE OF WORDING.

In Mayr's paper cited above, he does attempt to claim that "species" is in fact a concrete concept. He also goes on to use the example of "planet" as being a concrete concept. However, this paper was written 10 years ago. As we have seen recently "planet" is not that concrete at all. I contend, contrary to Mayr, that "species" is not that concrete either.

From the above paper:
"
2. Species of organisms are concrete phenomena of nature. Some recent authors have dealt with the concept of species as if it were merely an arbitrary, man-made concept, like the concepts of reduction, demarcation, cause, derivation, prediction, progress, each of which may have almost as many definitions as there are authors who have written about them. However, the concept biological species is not like such concepts. The term 'species' refers to a concrete phenomenon of nature and this fact severely constrains the number and kinds of possible definitions. The word 'species' is, like the words 'planet' or 'moon,' a technical term for a concrete phenomenon. One cannot propose a new definition of a planet as "a satellite of a sun that has its own satellite," because this would exclude Venus, and some other planets without moons. A definition of any class of objects must be applicable to any member of this class and exclude reference to attributes not characteristic of this class. This is why any definition of the term 'species' must be based on careful study of the phenomenon of nature to which this term is applied. Alas, this necessity is not appreciated by all too many of those who have recently discussed the species problem after a mere analysis of the literature. "
I am inclined to agree with the authors who say that species is arbitrary.







Sorry, Smildee, for shredding your whole "stronger vs weaker" definition thing. You really need to not only cite your souces, but be a little more discriminating in selecting them. Oh well, we all learn from our mistakes.
 
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