Creation Date

[AV1611VET]

But a sidereal day requires stars doesn't it?

That's true.

So let's forget the stars and consider JUST the earth in existence -- nothing else.

In that case, a day would be one rotation of the earth on its axis.

 

[inquiring mind]

That's true.

So let's forget the stars and consider JUST the earth in existence -- nothing else.

In that case, a day would be one rotation of the earth on its axis.

It's not so much a question of it being a day because God's word calls even the first three 'days' also. The question is more how do we know they were the same length as they are today?

 

[Hans Blaster]

I don't think it would be thousands, maybe hundreds. 3100 B.C. for beginning of Egypt's civilization according to Wikipedia anyway. General accepted date for the Flood is 2350 B.C. Septuagint had it a few hundred years older I think, so you might be talking 400-500 years difference.

The 3100 BC date is not the start of Egyptian civilization, but of the dynastic period and unification and roughly corresponds to the development of hieroglyphs. The Egyptian civilization(s) extend far back from that point.

 

[AV1611VET]

It's not so much a question of it being a day because God's word calls even the first three 'days' also. The question is more how do we know they were the same length as they are today?

Because Scripture treats them as literal days.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

[inquiring mind]

The 3100 BC date is not the start of Egyptian civilization, but of the dynastic period and unification and roughly corresponds to the development of hieroglyphs. The Egyptian civilization(s) extend far back from that point.

There’s a total of about eight sentences on predynastic Egypt (pre 3150 B.C.) in Wikipedia, so I don’t have a lot to comment on in that regard. It seems to be the general evolution narrative with speculation regarding petroglyph and artifact finds, transition from hunter-gathers etc. But, that doesn’t really contradict the question here, being the ‘actual Flood date,’ because anyone living prior to it, except Noah and family, were wiped out.

 

[inquiring mind]

Because Scripture treats them as literal days.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Well, except for that 2 Peter 3:8 part.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, except for that 2 Peter 3:8 part.

Genesis 29:20 And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.

 

[Hans Blaster]

There’s a total of about eight sentences on predynastic Egypt (pre 3150 B.C.) in Wikipedia, so I don’t have a lot to comment on in that regard. It seems to be the general evolution narrative with speculation regarding petroglyph and artifact finds, transition from hunter-gathers etc. But, that doesn’t really contradict the question here, being the ‘actual Flood date,’ because anyone living prior to it, except Noah and family, were wiped out.

That isn't an evolution narrative, but rather one of history and archeology.

How far back do we need to push this flood to avoid all periods of continuous human habitation?

 

[Jonaitis]

Ussher seemed to assume a lot with his 4004 B.C. creation date (evidently based on the first day of creation week). Personally, I think Creation week was in a different time zone altogether from the one we know. For example, why would the days before Day 4 and the creation of the sun be the same length as we know them? And really, it was God’s work, so how could we assume to know the length of any of them anyway? And, as far as chronology back to Adam, that’s crossing Day 7 of Creation Week??? God said it was finished on Day 6 (but doesn’t say when He set it in motion that I can find), and Day 7 was a day of rest for Him, but never-the-less in the Creation week time zone. I’m not wanting to argue against YEC, or anything really, just curious what others think. Could the adherence to hard dates, even when they cross from our time zone to an unknown one, be a reason for the time problem when dating the Flood or archeological finds and making comparisons? I’m not saying the archeological dating is exact either, it’s generally all estimated. All I’m saying, for example, is that the Flood was before Egyptian dynasties, no matter what dates they’re thought to be, and whether they're based on an interpretation of biblical chronologies or archaeological finds. Evolutionists feel free to comment too.

While I disagree with Ussher, I commend him for his work of the 'Annuls of the World,' for he is the only one who was able to attempt such a task. However, if the Flood happened in 2350 BCE, as he states, then that contradicts all of the written and material records of civilizations that date further back, such as the Egyptian dynasties and the Indus Valley Civilization.

 

[AV1611VET]

While I disagree with Ussher, I commend him for his work of the 'Annuls of the World,' for he is the only one who was able to attempt such a task. However, if the Flood happened in 2350 BCE, as he states, then that contradicts all of the written and material records of civilizations that date further back, such as the Egyptian dynasties and the Indus Valley Civilization.

If Egypt existed before the Flood, and we [supposedly] have records to that effect, then where are the Flood records?

 

[Astrid]

The 3100 BC date is not the start of Egyptian civilization, but of the dynastic period and unification and roughly corresponds to the development of hieroglyphs. The Egyptian civilization(s) extend far back from that point.

Nope.
They checked their sundials and started
their civ at sunrise 1 01 -3100

 

[Jonaitis]

If Egypt existed before the Flood, and we [supposedly] have records to that effect, then where are the Flood records?

There are none. The genre is "myth."

 

[AV1611VET]

There are none. The genre is "myth."

I totally agree.

They're all myth.

From the Egyptian stories, to the Chinese and every story in between.

EXCEPT the true story, written by Noah himself, who was actually there.

These other stories, we call "diabolical plagiarism."

And those stories are what science latches on to claim EVERY story is a myth.

It's called "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

 

[Jonaitis]

EXCEPT the true story, written by Noah himself, who was actually there.

Do you believe a man named Moses wrote Genesis?

Did you know that Moses' birth was plagiarized from the birth legend of Sargon of Akkad?

“Sargon, the mighty king, king of Addade, am I.
“My mother was a high priestess, my father I never knew.
“My father’s brother inhabits the highlands.
“My city is Azupiranu, which lies on the bank of the Euphrates.
“She conceived me, my high priestess mother, in secret she gave me birth,
“She set me in a wicker basket, with bitumen she made my opening water-tight,
“She cast me down into the river from which I could not ascend.
“The river bore me, to Aqqi the water-drawer it brought me.
“Aqqi the water-drawer, when lowering his bucket, did lift me up,
“Aqqi the water-drawer did raise me as his adopted son,
“Aqqi the water-drawer did set me to his gardening.
“While I was [still] a gardener, Ishtar did grow fond of me,
“And so far [...] years I did reign as king,
“The black-headed people (that is, the Sumerians), I did rule and govern.”

- Legends of the Kings of Akkade

The Flood story is obvious another Mesopotamian motif employed by Jewish writers during the exile in Babylon to create a unique story for their own people.

Edit: I can show you more, but are you willing to be open to it? Are you willing to be open to the fact that many Psalms are almost identical to ancient Akkadian hymns?

"How long, O my Lady, are my enemies to look darkly upon me, are they to plan evil things against me with lies and deceptions, are my persecutors and those who envy me to rejoice over me? How long, O my Lady, are cripples and the fools to pass by me [in contempt]?"

"How long will you be angry with me, my Lady, and is your face turned away? How long, my Lady, will you be wrathful and your heart enraged?"

- Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament

The Epic of Gilgamesh was obviously an influence on the biblical Flood story. I'll quote a section from the physical copy I personally own:

"For six days and six nights the winds blew, torrent and tempest and flood overwhelmed the world, tempest and flood raged together like warring hosts. When the seventh day dawned the storm from the south subsided, the sea grew calm, the flood was stilled; I looked at the face of the world and there was silence, all mankind was turned to clay. The surface of the sea stretched as flat as a roof-top; I opened the hatch and the light fell on my face. Then I bowed low, I sat down and I wept, the tears streamed down my face, for on every side was the waste of water. I looked for land in vain, but fourteen leagues distant there appeared a mountain, and there the boat grounded; on the mountain of Nisir the boat held fast, she held fast and did not budge. A third day, and a fourth day she held fast on the mountain and did not budge; a fifth day and a sixth day she held fast on the mountain. When the seventh day dawned I loosed a dove and let her go. She flew away, but finding no resting-place she returned. Then I loosed a swallow, and she flew away but finding no resting-place she returned. I loosed a raven, she saw that the waters had retreated, she ate and she flew around, she cawed, and she did not come back. Then I threw everything open to the four winds, I made a sacrifice and poured out a libation on the mountain top. Seven and again seven cauldrons I set up on their stands, I heaped up wood and cane and cedar and myrtle. When the gods smelled the sweet savour, they gathered like flies over the sacrifice."

Epic of Gilgamesh, Section 5, pg 111

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you believe a man named Moses wrote Genesis?

I believe he compiled it from the writings of Adam, Seth, Noah, Shem, et al.

Did you know that Moses' birth was plagiarized from the birth legend of Sargon of Akkad?

This is my take on Sumeria:

Nimrod, Noah's grandson, was a great man in the LORD.

Genesis 10:8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
Ge 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.

Probably using his God-given talents to hunt food, as the people replenished the earth after the Flood.

But something went wrong, and Nimrod turned his back on God for whatever reason, and he went and built an empire so evil, the Antichrist will resurrect it during the Tribulation.

Genesis 10:10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

Shem, Noah's son and Nimrod's great uncle, lived right up to the time of Jacob; providing eye witness testimony of the Flood.

Here's a FAKE conversation I made up that illustrates this nicely:

Shem: What's this trash you wrote, Nimrod; are you okay!?
Nimrod: Don't start on me again, uncle; you've always looked down on us Hamites.
Shem: That's garbage too! You used to be a mighty hunter before the LORD, what went wrong?
Nimrod: You think you Shemites are so much better than us, just because my grandfather was cursed for what his father did to your mother in that tent that day.
Shem: I watched you grow up, Nimrod, and how you used to love the LORD so much; but somewhere along the line you went astray and broke away from the rest of us and went and formed your own little empire. Well ... you do what you want, but as long as I live, I'll make sure my eyewitness testimony trumps your lies.
Nimrod: And what makes you an authority on the Flood over me?
Shem: I was there! Remember??? I was on the Ark ... you weren't!
Nimrod: Oh, that's right ... somehow I forgot ... what with there being no evidence and all.
Shem: [facepalms]

 

[Jonaitis]

I believe he compiled it from the writings of Adam, Seth, Noah, Shem, et al.This is my take on Sumeria:

Nimrod, Noah's grandson, was a great man in the LORD.

Genesis 10:8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
Ge 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.

Probably using his God-given talents to hunt food, as the people replenished the earth after the Flood.

But something went wrong, and Nimrod turned his back on God for whatever reason, and he went and built an empire so evil, the Antichrist will resurrect it during the Tribulation.

Genesis 10:10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

Shem, Noah's son and Nimrod's great uncle, lived right up to the time of Jacob; providing eye witness testimony of the Flood.

Here's a FAKE conversation I made up that illustrates this nicely:

Shem: What's this trash you wrote, Nimrod; are you okay!?
Nimrod: Don't start on me again, uncle; you've always looked down on us Hamites.
Shem: That's garbage too! You used to be a mighty hunter before the LORD, what went wrong?
Nimrod: You think you Shemites are so much better than us, just because my grandfather was cursed for what his father did to your mother in that tent that day.
Shem: I watched you grow up, Nimrod, and how you used to love the LORD so much; but somewhere along the line you went astray and broke away from the rest of us and went and formed your own little empire. Well ... you do what you want, but as long as I live, I'll make sure my eyewitness testimony trumps your lies.
Nimrod: And what makes you an authority on the Flood over me?
Shem: I was there! Remember??? I was on the Ark ... you weren't!
Nimrod: Oh, that's right ... somehow I forgot ... what with there being no evidence and all.
Shem: [facepalms]

If you think about it, the Pentateuch presents itself as a claim that the Jewish nation did not come from primitive origins. I envision the fake conversation in summary like so:

Persians: We worship one God, but you are free to believe what you want.
Jews: We do too, we had an ancestor who came from Ur, the renown city of the Sumerians. The reason we came from the West is because our ancestor was visited by the one true God, and being disgusted with the pagan idolatry of the Akkadians whom you hate, God gave us a land to possess where we can worship the one true God freely. We returned by the hands of the same Akkadians because of our sins against the Lord! Yahweh was more than a storm and war deity, He is the maker of all! Here, I will show you our history! The Canaanites you heard about, we aren't them, they worshiped idols! They were cursed long before our ancestor, during the Flood! Canaan was cursed by Noah, the ancestor of us all! The Akkadians to you is the Egyptians to us.
Persians: Interesting.

 

[Jonaitis]

@AV1611VET, you don't have to take these events literally to hold to what it teaches. Some people think that myth = fiction, but that's wrong. Myths are stories that are based on tradition. Some may have factual origins, while others are completely fictional. But myths are more than mere stories and they serve a more profound purpose in ancient and modern cultures. Myths are sacred tales that explain the world and man's experience. You can be a Christian and still see the Flood as mythos, rather than pure fiction, and benefit all the same from it as if you believed it to be true. The purpose of myths is to teach and explain and to relate human experiences. God can use such methods to save His people.

 

[AV1611VET]

I envision the fake conversation in summary like so:

Okay ... your fake conversation isn't too bad.

What's your point?

(And who is "Yahweh"?)

 

[AV1611VET]

You can be a Christian and still see the Flood as mythos,

But in doing so, you won't get the full meaning of history, as God intends us to have it.

Sure, I can claim that Jesus walking on water was a myth; but I'll miss so much about who He is and what He can do.

Mark 4:41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?

 

[inquiring mind]

While I disagree with Ussher, I commend him for his work of the 'Annuls of the World,' for he is the only one who was able to attempt such a task. However, if the Flood happened in 2350 BCE, as he states, then that contradicts all of the written and material records of civilizations that date further back, such as the Egyptian dynasties and the Indus Valley Civilization.

As the OP conveys, my thought when I see contradictions in the Bible and other written and material records is that ‘our’ applied timelines are off somewhere, and that can be with either or both of them. But, that is really not a problem with the Bible itself because it doesn’t put a date stamp on anything. We attempt the date stamping.