Creation and atheists

[Jester4kicks]

So are you suggesting a historian would know nothing about existence and meaning? And a musician knows nothing about the physical universe? And an uneducated farmer is absolutely dumb?

Well hopefully not! It is certainly my hope that everyone has a well-rounded education.

However, if I'm relying on that farmer for my food... I also hope he is not studying 17th century composers for clues on how he should plant his crops.

 

[GoSeminoles!]

This question is basically aimed at atheists.

I don't know if this would be difficult for you to imagine...but, if you could take as a hypothisis that God actually DOES exist, and that He DID create everythign at some point in the past (or at least the MAKINGS of everything, if you understand what I mean), how would you then approach the question of evolution?
(I amnot taking sides on this discussion, only that as a Christian, I believe God DID create everything, am just not sure HOW...I understand natural selection, but am stillunsure about the rest)

Do you think your view of evolution might change, or how do you think you might reconcile the Scriptural account with science?
I know there are plenty of theistic evolutionists who do this, but wondered if any atheist could imagine doing it (particularly I know that many of you have read Genesis and so forth).

My view of evolution would not change at all because the evidence all around us strongly leads to that conclusion. If in reality a deity magically spoke everything into existence, then it did so in a manner that remarkably resembles evolution.

 

[Hespera]

Glad to see you back, Juv. This section needs more comic relief.

Like they say, do you laugh or cry.

 

[tansy]

In response to the original question: It's easy to describe how to do. We take what we know, from experience, god does when he is creating. Then we extrapolate what he was likely to do with evolution.

The problem is there is nothing we know, from experience, about how god creates. Every single aspect of the world we have discovered so far can be traced back and understood through natural processess... which means if God did do any creating, he had to have created the processes themselves. And if god created the universe by putting these natural laws in place and letting the universe grow naturally- guess what, evolution is one of the results of that. So in the end it still comes back to evolution being exactly what it's like today.

The only alternative is to believe what the bible says about creation, and not what the creation says about itself, and that's just messy.

Yes, that's a fair enough answer....but do you think that he might have actually so set those laws that He would have known how evrything would have evolved (that is on the assumption that He does exist and did create those laws). And also based on the fact that we don't know everything about how the universe functions. What I'm trying to say is, on an extremely simple level, but it's the first example that comes to mind...if we set up loads of dominoes (I've seen programmes where they do this) in a certain pattern, with different colours and things - when they push the forst dominoe, they all move, and end up making a giant picture. Do you think that God could have done something limke this, but obviously on a vastly more complex scale?

 

[tansy]

L

ight requires a light source. Granted, certain gases and other elements will produce light when energy passes through them (think florescent bulbs or heated metals)... but light still has to have a source.

Yes (forgive me for being ignorant about these things), but that's the point I'm trying to make. If gases can produce light under certain circumstances, then I'm saying that maybe light could have existed before the sun, or maybe stars existed, due to the gases and whatever else was around at the time..is that a possibility?

As for "fitting" science into the story of creation... why would you want or need to? If your faith is dependant on cooberating evidence in the physical world, then you've reduced your creator to little more than a god-of-the-gaps... and you've actually set yourself up for disappointment as those gaps begin to get smaller and smaller.

Well, actually I would contend that God HAS given us corroboerating evidence in the physical world..but that would get us off into a whole other discussion, which I don't want to pursue at the moment.
I'm merely trying to understand things from other perspectives.

l world is supplemented by the supernatural, you are doing yourself an equaFrom the other side of things, if your understanding of the physical disservice by ceasing to look for answers in areas where you have decided the supernatural provides the explanation.

If you need or want your faith... have it. Just don't try to reconcile it with actual evidence because you will force yourself to compromise somewhere.

Ah, well, I have an inquisitive nature, and like to check out what I can...hence my asking these questions. I don't like to accept things on face value..although in practice in everyday life I have to, as I haven't got the time or knowledge to test evrything out..for example I'm not goint to personally test whether or not Ill get electocuted if I stick my finger on a live wire! I take other people's word and experience on that!

.

 

[Jester4kicks]

Yes, that's a fair enough answer....but do you think that he might have actually so set those laws that He would have known how evrything would have evolved (that is on the assumption that He does exist and did create those laws). And also based on the fact that we don't know everything about how the universe functions. What I'm trying to say is, on an extremely simple level, but it's the first example that comes to mind...if we set up loads of dominoes (I've seen programmes where they do this) in a certain pattern, with different colours and things - when they push the forst dominoe, they all move, and end up making a giant picture. Do you think that God could have done something limke this, but obviously on a vastly more complex scale?

Um... not to sound strange here... but isn't one of the basic foundations of your faith the belief in an omniscient god?

 

[tansy]

Um... not to sound strange here... but isn't one of the basic foundations of your faith the belief in an omniscient god?

Yes, of course...so I take it that you agree, that given an omniscient God, He could have put the laws of the universe in place in such a way, that everything evolved in His pre-ordained way, so that He knew how everything would pan out?

 

[Jester4kicks]

Yes (forgive me for being ignorant about these things), but that's the point I'm trying to make. If gases can produce light under certain circumstances, then I'm saying that maybe light could have existed before the sun, or maybe stars existed, due to the gases and whatever else was around at the time..is that a possibility?

It's not just a possibility, it's actually very likely.

Our sun (a star) is actually fairly young (in comparison to the rest of the universe). Current models indicate our sun was formed roughly 4.57 billion years ago. To put that into perspective, the most distant galaxy we have observed is roughly 13 billion light years away. Ergo, the light we are seeing from the stars in that galaxy is at least 13 billion years old.

Now, as for gasses and other elements that give off light before stars are born... here's a fun article on nebulas that I think you might enjoy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebula

Well, actually I would contend that God HAS given us corroboerating evidence in the physical world..but that would get us off into a whole other discussion, which I don't want to pursue at the moment.
I'm merely trying to understand things from other perspectives.

Fair enough. Feel free to return to this point if you wish to pursue it.

Ah, well, I have an inquisitive nature, and like to check out what I can...hence my asking these questions. I don't like to accept things on face value..although in practice in everyday life I have to, as I haven't got the time or knowledge to test evrything out..for example I'm not goint to personally test whether or not Ill get electocuted if I stick my finger on a live wire! I take other people's word and experience on that!

No problem! That's the beauty of science though... if you were so inclined to test something for yourself, you could! Even better... if your test yielded different results, you might be onto something that could change a fundamental scientific understanding (ok, it's not very likely, but it could happen).

Unfortunately, faith doesn't quite offer the same thing.

 

[Jester4kicks]

Yes, of course...so I take it that you agree, that given an omniscient God, He could have put the laws of the universe in place in such a way, that everything evolved in His pre-ordained way, so that He knew how everything would pan out?

Well sure... but why stop there? Why not say that he set the basic laws and guided everything directly so that it turned out the way he wanted?

Or, going the other direction, why not say that he had nothing to do with the basic physical laws of the universe, and say that he simply popped a single bit of matter into a void, and all of the physical laws that resulted occured so completely naturally?

It's impossible to draw the line with making it completely subjective.


Tansy, I actually like you. I dig how inquisitive you are. I hope you continue to ask these questions... but I hope you realize that the closer you get to answers, the fewer gaps you'll find to squeeze god into.

 

[tansy]

Well sure... but why stop there? Why not say that he set the basic laws and guided everything directly so that it turned out the way he wanted?

Or, going the other direction, why not say that he had nothing to do with the basic physical laws of the universe, and say that he simply popped a single bit of matter into a void, and all of the physical laws that resulted occured so completely naturally?

It's impossible to draw the line with making it completely subjective.


Tansy, I actually like you. I dig how inquisitive you are. I hope you continue to ask these questions... but I hope you realize that the closer you get to answers, the fewer gaps you'll find to squeeze god into.

Thanks
But I don't really think I AM trying to squeeze God into gaps.
It's just that since I became a Christian I've become even more fascinated by His creation.
I remember, even before I knew God, I would get frustrated in science lessons (not I'm sure that I would have been any good at science..and there's just so much to learn). But we would be doing chemistry experiments, and I was always wanting to know where they got the magnesium and the sulphur an so on, from, to DO the experiments.
We never really got onto learning about atoms and things (I stopped science in the third year, and did languages and stuff..as I say, I wouldn't really have been able to do the science), but I found the notion of atoms fascinating, wanted really to know the smallest possible thing everything goes down to...I would love to push everything back and back to the final frontiers as it were...if I were capable I'd love to be a scientist. But the trouble is, I'd like to know everything about EVERYTHING, which isn't possible LOL And I definitely haven't got time to go into stuff as much as would be nice.
People say to me things like, well, one doesn't worry about how the light works when one presses the switch...but actually, it DOES worry me..I'd much rather KNOW how it works.
I used to drive my Dad mad when I was a kid..always asking him questions until I got a satisfactory answer..I hated being fobbed off with answers I didn't think made sense. For example, I might say to him something like "Why are you painting thfront door?" And he'd say "To make it look nice". Now, to me, at that age, that seemed like a silly answer..I would reply "Well, what's wrong with it looking scruffy?". THEN he would give me what seemed like a sensible answer.."Well, if the door's not painted, then it will eventually rot and crack when exposed to the elements" (not in quite those words maybe, but you get the picture).

So, actually, I think I might be able to understand a bit why atheists get frustrated and maybe don't always understand exactly where Christians are coming from...but by the same token, it can be a little frustrating for Christians trying to explain things to atheists. Especially, for example, that (so far as I know<) God cannot be proved through science per se, and neither (possibly) can He be disproved through science - though if He is, then we'll have to eat humble pie

 

[Hespera]

I like reading your posts too,Tansy. You make me think of some of the smart interesting Christians that I know here at the U! I go to their church sometimes, and I like hearing what they have to say. Serious discussions....I like that. I dont get at all frustrated with that sort of person, or that kind of thinking.

 

[juvenissun]

I like reading your posts too,Tansy. You make me think of some of the smart interesting Christians that I know here at the U! I go to their church sometimes, and I like hearing what they have to say. Serious discussions....I like that. I dont get at all frustrated with that sort of person, or that kind of thinking.

Good for you. Keep doing that.

 

[tansy]

I like reading your posts too,Tansy. You make me think of some of the smart interesting Christians that I know here at the U! I go to their church sometimes, and I like hearing what they have to say. Serious discussions....I like that. I dont get at all frustrated with that sort of person, or that kind of thinking.

Thank you, Hespera

 

[Bombila]

Nice little discussion - good OP, Tansy.

When I was a Christian, it was within the mainstream Canadian church I was brought up with, and they were not what we call 'creationists' - I suppose they were/are theistic evolutionists, although the term wasn't around at the time.

So when I thought about the idea of God the Creator it was in terms of a being who created and manipulated the physical stuff of the universe to suit its desires, and that anything science discovered about the physical universe was just discovering the processes and effects of that original manipulation, so there was no conflict - whatever science discovered was likely true.

The idea of taking Genesis literally was always something I considered naive and simplistic. Genesis is so obviously, to me, a poetic and imaginary tale of beginnings, an introduction to the idea of God as the underlying First Cause.

 

[tansy]

Nice little discussion - good OP, Tansy.

When I was a Christian, it was within the mainstream Canadian church I was brought up with, and they were not what we call 'creationists' - I suppose they were/are theistic evolutionists, although the term wasn't around at the time.

So when I thought about the idea of God the Creator it was in terms of a being who created and manipulated the physical stuff of the universe to suit its desires, and that anything science discovered about the physical universe was just discovering the processes and effects of that original manipulation, so there was no conflict - whatever science discovered was likely true.

The idea of taking Genesis literally was always something I considered naive and simplistic. Genesis is so obviously, to me, a poetic and imaginary tale of beginnings, an introduction to the idea of God as the underlying First Cause.

Thanks for you response Bombilia...I've never necessarily seen Genesis as EXACTLY literal...hpwever, neither do I see it as pure poetry or imagination.
After all, whatever there may be within it that is or is not scientific, or is miraculous or not, or mere myth.....nonetheless, presumably before the universe formed into actual planets a d stars, it MUST have been chaotic and void. And how would the writer of Genesis have known that. That seems to be scientific to me.
I always feel that, in essence, Genesis is correct - however, it does not cover every single aspect of everything, and there is vast amounts of stuff kind of behind it, as it were, which we are not party to.
I'm not out here, to prove whether or not evolution is correct..that is far beyond any expertise I have...I'm just trying to think things out a little from as many different perspectives as I can - and one can learn a great deal from non-beleivers.

 

[Naraoia]

This question is basically aimed at atheists.

I don't know if this would be difficult for you to imagine...but, if you could take as a hypothisis that God actually DOES exist, and that He DID create everythign at some point in the past (or at least the MAKINGS of everything, if you understand what I mean), how would you then approach the question of evolution?
(I amnot taking sides on this discussion, only that as a Christian, I believe God DID create everything, am just not sure HOW...I understand natural selection, but am stillunsure about the rest)

Do you think your view of evolution might change, or how do you think you might reconcile the Scriptural account with science?
I know there are plenty of theistic evolutionists who do this, but wondered if any atheist could imagine doing it (particularly I know that many of you have read Genesis and so forth).

If there obviously was a god (however that might be proven), then I'd have to believe what he/she/it said about the world. That's assuming an honest and all-knowing god, of course

And whether or not there is a god, there is always the physical world. Assuming an honest god again, I'd still have to conform my views to reality.

As for a dishonest god, that way lies madness

...as I say, I wouldn't really have been able to do the science)

Why do you think that? You definitely have the right attitude

 

[Jester4kicks]

As for a dishonest god, that way lies madness

...you come to a fork in the road. In one direction is a tribe of cannibals who always lie, in the other direction is a peaceful tribe who always tell the truth. A member of each tribe is at the fork, but you don't know which tribe either one belongs to.....

 

[tansy]

If there obviously was a god (however that might be proven), then I'd have to believe what he/she/it said about the world. That's assuming an honest and all-knowing god, of course

Well said..but of course, a lot depends on the interpretation of certain things. Some stuf in the Bible is straightforward, and some not.
A

nd whether or not there is a god, there is always the physical world. Assuming an honest god again, I'd still have to conform my views to reality.

Agreed..but even then..we can't always see the whole of reality, only bits of it..although we see more and more of it, what with microscopes, telescopes etc etc. I wonder if we'll ever know everything about everything...there always is more to discover

As for a dishonest god, that way lies madness

Yep...none of us would stand a chance, if He were dishonest!

Why do you think that? You definitely have the right attitude

Well, for a start, I was always lousy at maths..somehow got left behind in the basics at ayoung age, so, of course, had great difficulty at a later stage..so really that puts physics out of the question. It wasn't 'til I was married that I even began to understand how algebra was used. At school, I couldn't understand how you could add or multiply letters!!! Nobody ever explained how algebra was actually applied.
I always got on better with geometry, because you could see the application. Later in life, I did do a bit more maths, and once things were explained properly to me, a lot more started falling into place, and I actually think it could be fun.
I think, maybe it was the way science was taught..I suppose they had to cover certain things in the syllabus, and I'm not sure they would have had much time for questioning.
I think the way my mind works, would have sent my teachers into despair!

For example..take a chemistry experiment - mixing two chemicals together, and they go poof! or change colour , or whatever.
Well, we'd write out what we did and the conclusion, also, of course, we'd have a control. But that (so far as I remember],was as far as it went.

But:
What applications would that have?
WHY do those chemicals react like that?
What was their atomic make-up?
Where does one get those chemicals from (I mean, apart from the suppliers)
How would one extract those chemicals?
How would one build the equipment to exrtact the chemicals?
How does one store them safely?
And so on an so forth.

I expect the kids who went on to do O and A Level Science, would have gone into all those sorts of things..but I never got that far LOL

Oh, another thing..first year phusics was a doddle..the teachers were surprised I got a good mark..but it was all stuff one just observed in everyday life...fulcrums and stuff. Then, second or third year physics we did stuff with ripple tanks...still don't know why..again, stuff one observed in everyday life - but they never told us, or got ust to think about how knowledge about ripples or waves could actuall be USED.

I'm not saying that EVERYthing we did was just like that..for example we did a bit about electical currents and resistors and stuff..but again, I'd more or less learnt that really basic stuff from my elder brother , who was really into home-made radios and things.

I like to think around a subject, and approach it from different angles...I do drive people mad...sometimes they might say I'm not thinking logically - but they don't understand that I'm simply approaching something (whatever the subject) in a kind of roundabout way, as I find that if I look at things ind different ways, even if they're not the best, quickest, or right ways, then ultimately I'll have learnt a lot more on the way.

So, anyhow, I went onto do languages, and art, history and geography...

.

 

[tansy]

...you come to a fork in the road. In one direction is a tribe of cannibals who always lie, in the other direction is a peaceful tribe who always tell the truth. A member of each tribe is at the fork, but you don't know which tribe either one belongs to.....

AHA!!!!!!.......That's where one needs to ask God for wisdom and discernment...

 

[Jester4kicks]

AHA!!!!!!.......That's where one needs to ask God for wisdom and discernment...

Or simply ask either man the following question: "Will the other man tell me that your path leads to the peaceful tribe?"


Can you figure out why that works?



See? No god necessary.