Creating a New Nation! The New C.S.A. (2)

[TheReasoner]

Please read:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. --Romans 9[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]GOD says here, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated".[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]You forget that evil angers GOD. You forget that He really did create governments to keep us safe from vile criminals.
[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]It is the duty of the government to keep peace and protect us from murderers, rapists, kidnappers...ect..[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]I know you hate this fact. I understand that. But it makes it none the less fact!!![/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]SOLA FIDE.
[/FONT]

Yes. He hates evil. Yet He died for all the evildoers on the earth. And He told us, showed us by example that forgiveness is good. Yes, He showed us that forgiveness is the mark of those who follow Him.
Even in the face of terrible things, We should forgive and do good! Jesus died for us, in our stead He took the death penalty we should have had.
Jesus tells us that we should forgive our brother, even if he sins against you seventy times seven times. Just read Matthew 18:21-22:
21 Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone[a] who sins against me? Seven times?”
22 “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven!"

Luke 23:32-34 shows how Jesus, son of GOD treated those who killed Him:
32Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."[a] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Such wonderful mercy! As they had nailed him to the cross, in one of the worst methods of execution available He called out with mercy and forgiveness. Even as they divided His clothes among them, He forgave.

Shouldn't we do as He and love and do good to everyone, even those who would see us dead? This is Christ's commandment, that we love one another. Yet what you propose is not love. It is bloodshed. It is death. It is the opposite of forgiveness, it is vengeance. Even though the Lord says "Vengeance is mine!" you would take it in your own hands. And instead of doing good to those who would persecute us Christians, you would kill. You would kill even those who do not persecute us.
And this is why I call for you to repent. Jesus loves you, Shield. He doesn't want you to promote what you do. He doesn't want you to be consumed with hatred and vengeance. Leave that at the cross. That burden is not yours to bear.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Otherwise, yea, I could go for a Christian theocracy here in the states.

SOLA GRATIA.

But the question is, who gets to run the joint?

Would you be okay with a Christian Theocracy here if it was the Roman Catholic Church running it?

 

[Shadowfax503]

SOF
Thank you for the reply to my questions.
I get the feeling that you are wanting the promised millennial kingdom of Christ to be here and now.
A place of no crime and war and a place of peace and worship of our God. If I am correct in thinking that is what you want than I can say to some extent I see where you are coming from. For I too look forward to that day when Jesus will return.

HOWEVER the government of Jesus will be installed by Jesus at his return. He never once told us to separate ourselves from the people of the world or to put up walls to keep sinners(criminals) out. He was all about living with, teaching to and dieing for those criminals.
He called us to be in this world but not OF the world. He told us that if we follow him we would be persecuted and some would die for his name. We are called to go to every nation and teach about him.
I know I am beating my head against a wall because I feel you are set in your thinking that criminals should all pay for their crimes. Like I said though, Would Jesus condemn all criminals? Would he have condemned the homosexual, The abortionist, The Gang Member, The Drug addict, The Adulter, The Drunk, The Teen Rebel, The Lier, The Thief, The Gossip, The Rapist and all the other people you are advocating be hung or expelled or punished in some form?
My only question is please show me in scripture where Jesus did to sinners what you are suggesting should be done to sinners?

 

[Nathan Poe]

But the question is, who gets to run the joint?

Would you be okay with a Christian Theocracy here if it was the Roman Catholic Church running it?

Bishop Spong still gets my vote -- assuming we're allowed to vote in the theocracy.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Bishop Spong still gets my vote -- assuming we're allowed to vote in the theocracy.

No, you CANNOT have a guy whose last name is Spong running the place. It's just too ripe for mockery. Just imagine the possible nicknames.

 

[tulc]

Would you be okay with a Christian Theocracy here if it was the Roman Catholic Church running it?

...I'm an Anabaptist, theocracies tend to not be very healthy for us.
tulc(I'm just saying!)

 

[ParsonJefferson]

...I'm an Anabaptist, theocracies tend to not be very healthy for us.
tulc(I'm just saying!)

Well then, you need to toe the line Buddy. No more of this re-baptizing stuff!

 

[craigerNY]

Wow! This sucker's almost up for part 3. I guess nation building takes a lot of posts. I gotta hand it to you Shield I didn't think this thread would go this long but then again your threads seem to have a certain kind of staying power to them. You should make a law about that.........

 

[tulc]

Well then, you need to toe the line Buddy. No more of this re-baptizing stuff!

Well, what can we do? We put the "Ana" in Anabaptist!
tulc(having some very good coffee right now)

 

[Nathan Poe]

No, you CANNOT have a guy whose last name is Spong running the place. It's just too ripe for mockery. Just imagine the possible nicknames.

I remember when we had a president named Bush and a VP named Quayle. We got through it.

(And I won't comment on the names of our current prez and VP -- I don't feel like getting banned)

 

[ShieldOFaith]

SOF
Thank you for the reply to my questions.
I get the feeling that you are wanting the promised millennial kingdom of Christ to be here and now.
A place of no crime and war and a place of peace and worship of our God. If I am correct in thinking that is what you want than I can say to some extent I see where you are coming from. For I too look forward to that day when Jesus will return.

HOWEVER the government of Jesus will be installed by Jesus at his return. He never once told us to separate ourselves from the people of the world or to put up walls to keep sinners(criminals) out. He was all about living with, teaching to and dieing for those criminals.
He called us to be in this world but not OF the world. He told us that if we follow him we would be persecuted and some would die for his name. We are called to go to every nation and teach about him.
I know I am beating my head against a wall because I feel you are set in your thinking that criminals should all pay for their crimes. Like I said though, Would Jesus condemn all criminals? Would he have condemned the homosexual, The abortionist, The Gang Member, The Drug addict, The Adulter, The Drunk, The Teen Rebel, The Lier, The Thief, The Gossip, The Rapist and all the other people you are advocating be hung or expelled or punished in some form?
My only question is please show me in scripture where Jesus did to sinners what you are suggesting should be done to sinners?

Shadow, howdy.

As far as Jesus punishing murderers/ rapists while He was here; you are confusing two separate issues. Was Jesus' mission here on earth to be the head of the government? No.

If He was here to be the head of the government, He would have put to death anyone who was guilty of any a Capital Offense according to Hebrew Law! Since HE was the LAW GIVER! He could and would never break HIS own law!!!

Jesus lived under the Old Covenant. That is why He did not eat pork, obeyed the Sabbath...ect..

And please don't bring up the adultures woman. I went through a long post refuting that argument way back in this thread. If you feel the urge, PLEASE GO BACK THROUGH THIS ENTIRE THREAD and find where I destroyed that argument.

Once again, HE was not here as the ruler of the government when He was here.

Our gov. has the right to execute criminals.

SOLA GRATIA.

 

[ShieldOFaith]

Wow! This sucker's almost up for part 3. I guess nation building takes a lot of posts. I gotta hand it to you Shield I didn't think this thread would go this long but then again your threads seem to have a certain kind of staying power to them. You should make a law about that.........

I am the Law givva...

 

[Paulos23]

I am the Law givva...

If no one uses your laws, that hardly makes you a law giver...

 

[ShieldOFaith]

Your cheery little smiley face does little to alleviate the horror of your words. In the name of Christianity you would kill gang members, homosexuals and abortion doctors, among others?
It is pure evil to use the name of Chrisianity to justify or excuse murder. If you insist on preaching for the necessity of a fundamentalist state, please do so without claiming the philosophical backing of Jesus Christ, he does not support you.

It would not be murder!

You do not understand the roll of government. Please read up on the subject, then come back and we can discuss this topic.

SOLI DEO GLORIA.

 

[Paulos23]

It would not be murder!

You do not understand the roll of government. Please read up on the subject, then come back and we can discuss this topic.

SOLI DEO GLORIA.

So if the government can legally kill someone and have it not be murder, then the mass killings in the twentieth century by governments are right and not mass murder?

I think you missed a step in your logic there SoF.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Shadow, howdy.

As far as Jesus punishing murderers/ rapists while He was here; you are confusing two separate issues. Was Jesus' mission here on earth to be the head of the government? No.

Fair enough.

If He was here to be the head of the government, He would have put to death anyone who was guilty of any a Capital Offense according to Hebrew Law! Since HE was the LAW GIVER! He could and would never break HIS own law!!!

Except when he worked on the Sabbath...

Except when he touched a leper, a menustrating woman, and a corpse which had been dead more than three days -- all of which were forbidden, as they make the transgressor cerimoniously unclean/

Except when he clensed the temple (Hebrews had laws against causing such a ruckus!)

Except when he proclaimed "I and the Father are one." (Hebrews had srrict laws against such blasphemy!)

Except for that whole "let he who is without sin..." business with the adulteress...

Nope, Jesus Never broke Hebrew Law... except when he did.

Jesus lived under the Old Covenant. That is why He did not eat pork, obeyed the Sabbath...ect..

You mean why did didn't obey the Sabbath, don't you?

And please don't bring up the adultures woman. I went through a long post refuting that argument way back in this thread. If you feel the urge, PLEASE GO BACK THROUGH THIS ENTIRE THREAD and find where I destroyed that argument.

Nobody believes your argument because it's utter nonsense. You have no reason to think it was some sort of "set up" and even if it was, it doesn't excuse Jesus' response, which then should've been something alone the lines of "If this woman is guilty, then follow the law."

Once again, HE was not here as the ruler of the government when He was here.

Our gov. has the right to execute criminals.

Our gov, if we accept Romans 13 as you do, has the right to execute anybody.

SOLA GRATIA.

Scientia potentia est.

 

[Shadowfax503]

Once again, HE was not here as the ruler of the government when He was here.

Our gov. has the right to execute criminals.

SOLA GRATIA.

Thank you for the answer.
I will give you that he was not here as judge and jury.

On to government executions:
Just so I am up to speed here,
How does the new CSA decide who will be executed? What are the parameters for that decision?
Would the defendant be innocent until proven guilty? What kind of proof would the CSA need?

 

[Nathan Poe]

It would not be murder!

You do not understand the roll of government. Please read up on the subject, then come back and we can discuss this topic.

SOLI DEO GLORIA.

So when the government legalized abortion, it's not murder! yay!

RES IPSA LOQUITOR.

 

[tulc]

So if the government can legally kill someone and have it not be murder, then the mass killings in the twentieth century by governments are right and not mass murder?

Several people have brought this up SoF and I haven't seen you address it, care to explain why you said Stalin and Mao's governments murdered people when governments don't murder?
tulc(or point me to where you did answer it?)

 

[TheNewWorldMan]

Sorry, SoF, but you've been