created/uncreated grace

[~Anastasia~]

I have to ask - do the Orthodox claim that the person must co-operate with God's grace or energies for them to be effective?

I'm sure you will get more in depth answers but certainly we must cooperate with God's grace/energies. If we refuse, He doesn't force us?

Is that what you mean?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hello and welcome to CF and to TAW.

Observation here - So I am struggling to see if I can be Catholic or not, and grace is a point of interest.

Coming from a Biblical point of view, I have a harder time with all the "grace and graces" of Catholicism.

I had a conversation with a life long Catholic at our parish this week and they stated something like "If it wasn't for all the graces earned by all our prayers, and sacrifices, and prayers, and martyrs, nobody would go to Heaven". What????

There also seems to be a large focus on suffering and guilt, more than the resurrection and joy as well.

It seems whatever is being done, doctrine or not, in Catholicism has people thinking like this??

The prayers of others can help us. But we (Orthodox) don't count grace as "earned" or measure it or see it to come only through particular channels. God's grace comes to us in many ways. He WANTS to save people. We do see the Sacraments as a primary way, but not the only way. They are however what God established for that purpose, so we are confident that He will do His part. Everything else is His additional mercy.

I do find Catholicism to be rather guilt-driven but to be fair, I'm an outsider looking in. I am guessing it has to do with so much codification of sin, categorizing those that will put your soul in mortal danger (which I think serious sin can do, but having a checklist - which sometimes doesn't make sense how they are even classified - seems to push that fear). Not to mention the teaching that even if the sin doesn't cost your soul, it still must be punished or otherwise made up for - I think that contributes to a guilt-consciousness.

Orthodoxy doesn't focus on suffering, I wouldn't say. But we DO acknowledge that God can use it in our lives, and frequently does. But He can use anything, and does - because He desires our salvation.

We certainly have joy and very joyful celebrations, but Orthodoxy is not focused on "feeling good all the time". True joy can continue even through suffering and sorrows, but we don't shrink from whatever comes (ideally of course).

I hope that helps just a little.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have to ask - do the Orthodox claim that the person must co-operate with God's grace or energies for them to be effective?

yes and no. yes in the sense that God does not force Himself on man, so man must say yes to God. but no in the sense that God's grace is God Himself, and therefore not dependent on man.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Observation here - So I am struggling to see if I can be Catholic or not, and grace is a point of interest.

Coming from a Biblical point of view, I have a harder time with all the "grace and graces" of Catholicism.

I had a conversation with a life long Catholic at our parish this week and they stated something like "If it wasn't for all the graces earned by all our prayers, and sacrifices, and prayers, and martyrs, nobody would go to Heaven". What????

There also seems to be a large focus on suffering and guilt, more than the resurrection and joy as well.

It seems whatever is being done, doctrine or not, in Catholicism has people thinking like this??

I think these questions are more for the Catholic forum in here. but for us, there is no grace and graces as distinct because if God's grace is divine, then grace is infinite and eternal and therefore not quantifiable.

 

[~Anastasia~]

yes and no. yes in the sense that God does not force Himself on man, so man must say yes to God. but no in the sense that God's grace is God Himself, and therefore not dependent on man.

Oh I'm glad you answered this way.

I was thinking only of how God's grace interacts with man for salvation, but to say that God's actual activity in the world depends on us ... I didn't even catch that implication in the question.

 

[Markie Boy]

That works. Seems Catholics agree that we must say yes to God to receive that grace and let it work in and through us.

Avoiding Catholic forums for now, so I may pester you guys more.

Thanks.

 

[~Anastasia~]

That works. Seems Catholics agree that we must say yes to God to receive that grace and let it work in and through us.

Avoiding Catholic forums for now, so I may pester you guys more.

Thanks.

Feel free to ask away.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That works. Seems Catholics agree that we must say yes to God to receive that grace and let it work in and through us.

Avoiding Catholic forums for now, so I may pester you guys more.

Thanks.

indeed, please pester away