created/uncreated grace

ArmyMatt

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From what i read it seems like Barlaam was told his view means we can't truly know God... If he said this, his view wasn't Catholic fully. If he didn't, he was misunderstood . . As we do teach we truly know God Himself, not just a creature (created grace).

Everything I've read from solid Catholic sources shows we do believe in the substance of grace being Uncreated.. . If Barlaam didn't agree with this he would disagree with Catholics too

But the issue of grace being only uncreated or created and uncreated... that is an ongoing debate today

How do we receive the Uncreated in an uncreated way? I'm having trouble understanding that...

we receive it as God gives Himself. this is what man was created for. this is what Justin Martyr says in his dialogue with Trypho.

and I will say that while Rome might not teach Barlaam now, they certainly affirmed it back then by making him a bishop.

and that debate might go on, but not with us. if it does for Rome, that is maybe because she doesn't have a consistent position.
 
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Maryslittleflower

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we receive it as God gives Himself. this is what man was created for. this is what Justin Martyr says in his dialogue with Trypho.

and I will say that while Rome might not teach Barlaam now, they certainly affirmed it back then by making him a bishop.

and that debate might go on, but not with us. if it does for Rome, that is maybe because she doesn't have a consistent position.
I guess it depends why he was made Bishop...

God does give Himself... We believe this too... I guess the "how" is where we differ in theology..
 
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ArmyMatt

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I guess it depends why he was made Bishop...

God does give Himself... We believe this too... I guess the "how" is where we differ in theology..

well, Rome did side with him during the hesychast controversy. and the how is very important.
 
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Maryslittleflower

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Could be that Barlaam either meant something other than how the East understood him, or he meant it this way and the West just wanted to uphold his view of created grace. It's hard to say I think... a lot of historical research to be done here.

I did come across a description by St John of the Cross that I thought was really neat. He said that union with God is like sunlight passing through a window. The sunlight is the divine nature and the window is us, and of course we keep our human nature. I guess created grace here would be whatever allows the window to be transparent :) the light is still the uncreated divine nature. I hope that makes sense. I need to look up how he described it - I added the details in the analogy myself, but the example is St John's.
 
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Maryslittleflower

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"Sanctifying grace, to proceed, is a permanent quality of the soul. It is the living water, springing up into eternal life. [1107] It is "the seed of God," [1108] which tradition calls "the seed of glory." [1109] St. Thomas [1110] formulates a precise doctrine, which found ever wider acceptance and final approval in the Council of Trent. [1111] We cannot hold, he says, that God provides less generously in the supernatural order than He does in the natural order. Since in the natural order He gives nature as radical, principle and the faculties as proximate principles of our natural operations, we may expect that He will give us grace as radical principle of our supernatural operations. Thus sanctifying graces becomes "a second nature," which enables us to connaturally know and love God in a higher order than that of our natural faculties.

This participation in the divine nature is indeed formal and physical, but only analogical. [1112] Human words, even inspired words, far from being exaggerations, can express supernatural truths only by understatement. As the divine nature is the principle by which God knows and loves Himself, without medium or interruption, so sanctifying grace is the radical principle which disposes us to see God without medium, to love Him eternally without interruption, to do all things for His sake. That is the meaning of "participation in the divine nature." This participation is not a mere moral quality, a mere imitation of God's goodness. It is a real and physical participation, spiritual and supernatural, because it is the root principle of acts which are themselves really, physically, essentially supernatural. Human adoption gives to the child the moral right to an inheritance. Divine adoption creates in the soul a real and physical claim to divine inheritance.

Sanctifying grace, then, is a participation, not, like actual grace, virtual and transient, but formal and permanent. Still this participation is, not univocal, but analogical, because the divine nature is independent and infinite, whereas grace is essentially finite and dependent on God. Further, grace is an accident, not a substance, and the utmost knowledge it can give us of God is only intuitive, never absolutely comprehensive. Nevertheless this participation, though it is analogical, is still a participation in the deity as deity, since it is the source of the light of glory which enables us to see God as He is in Himself, the deity as deity. Now the deity as deity, though it pre-contains formally all perfections, being, life, intelligence, which it can communicate to creatures, still transcends infinitely all these perfections. [1113] The stone, by participating in being, has an analogical resemblance to God as being. The plant, participating in life, has an analogical resemblance to God as living. Our soul, participating in intelligence, has an analogical resemblance to God as intelligent. But sanctifying grace alone is a participation in the deity as deity, a participation which is naturally impossible and hence naturally unknowable. Only the obscure light of infused faith here below, and only the light of glory there above, can let us see the deity as deity, God as He is in Himself."

Reality - A Thomistic Synthesis: by Pere Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. - Complete book online

So to put this together.. though sanctifying grace is created, it disposes us to participate truly in God's nature. But we remain creatures. Sanctifying grace is accidental. But our participation is in God's actual nature, not just in a creature. The created grace is to dispose us towards this.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Could be that Barlaam either meant something other than how the East understood him, or he meant it this way and the West just wanted to uphold his view of created grace. It's hard to say I think... a lot of historical research to be done here.

I did come across a description by St John of the Cross that I thought was really neat. He said that union with God is like sunlight passing through a window. The sunlight is the divine nature and the window is us, and of course we keep our human nature. I guess created grace here would be whatever allows the window to be transparent :) the light is still the uncreated divine nature. I hope that makes sense. I need to look up how he described it - I added the details in the analogy myself, but the example is St John's.

which is still problematic since only the Uncreated can keep the window clear.
 
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ArmyMatt

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"Sanctifying grace, to proceed, is a permanent quality of the soul. It is the living water, springing up into eternal life. [1107] It is "the seed of God," [1108] which tradition calls "the seed of glory." [1109] St. Thomas [1110] formulates a precise doctrine, which found ever wider acceptance and final approval in the Council of Trent. [1111] We cannot hold, he says, that God provides less generously in the supernatural order than He does in the natural order. Since in the natural order He gives nature as radical, principle and the faculties as proximate principles of our natural operations, we may expect that He will give us grace as radical principle of our supernatural operations. Thus sanctifying graces becomes "a second nature," which enables us to connaturally know and love God in a higher order than that of our natural faculties.

This participation in the divine nature is indeed formal and physical, but only analogical. [1112] Human words, even inspired words, far from being exaggerations, can express supernatural truths only by understatement. As the divine nature is the principle by which God knows and loves Himself, without medium or interruption, so sanctifying grace is the radical principle which disposes us to see God without medium, to love Him eternally without interruption, to do all things for His sake. That is the meaning of "participation in the divine nature." This participation is not a mere moral quality, a mere imitation of God's goodness. It is a real and physical participation, spiritual and supernatural, because it is the root principle of acts which are themselves really, physically, essentially supernatural. Human adoption gives to the child the moral right to an inheritance. Divine adoption creates in the soul a real and physical claim to divine inheritance.

Sanctifying grace, then, is a participation, not, like actual grace, virtual and transient, but formal and permanent. Still this participation is, not univocal, but analogical, because the divine nature is independent and infinite, whereas grace is essentially finite and dependent on God. Further, grace is an accident, not a substance, and the utmost knowledge it can give us of God is only intuitive, never absolutely comprehensive. Nevertheless this participation, though it is analogical, is still a participation in the deity as deity, since it is the source of the light of glory which enables us to see God as He is in Himself, the deity as deity. Now the deity as deity, though it pre-contains formally all perfections, being, life, intelligence, which it can communicate to creatures, still transcends infinitely all these perfections. [1113] The stone, by participating in being, has an analogical resemblance to God as being. The plant, participating in life, has an analogical resemblance to God as living. Our soul, participating in intelligence, has an analogical resemblance to God as intelligent. But sanctifying grace alone is a participation in the deity as deity, a participation which is naturally impossible and hence naturally unknowable. Only the obscure light of infused faith here below, and only the light of glory there above, can let us see the deity as deity, God as He is in Himself."

Reality - A Thomistic Synthesis: by Pere Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. - Complete book online

So to put this together.. though sanctifying grace is created, it disposes us to participate truly in God's nature. But we remain creatures. Sanctifying grace is accidental. But our participation is in God's actual nature, not just in a creature. The created grace is to dispose us towards this.

and in this he says grace is finite and dependent on God, which is wrong.
 
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ArmyMatt

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this is only about created grace.. we see uncreated grace as not distinct from God's essence, so uncreated grace is God

and uncreated grace is distinct from God's Essence (6th Council) and there is no such thing in the Fathers as created grace. it's like saying there is a created Logos and an uncreated Logos.
 
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Maryslittleflower

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and uncreated grace is distinct from God's Essence (6th Council) and there is no such thing in the Fathers as created grace. it's like saying there is a created Logos and an uncreated Logos.
I think we are talking from different theological perspectives... for example, we see a distinction but not a formal distinction. (apparently it's called a "minor virtual distinction", but not purely a mental one). When we say created grace, it's not Divine Energy itself (ie: God) that becomes created, but the instance of this Energy acting upon an individual (which we call a sanctifying or actual grace). I think that's an important distinction...
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think we are talking from different theological perspectives... for example, we see a distinction but not a formal distinction. (apparently it's called a "minor virtual distinction", but not purely a mental one). When we say created grace, it's not Divine Energy itself (ie: God) that becomes created, but the instance of this Energy acting upon an individual (which we call a sanctifying or actual grace). I think that's an important distinction...

which makes no sense according to the 6th Council. the instance is still of the uncreated
 
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Maryslittleflower

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which makes no sense according to the 6th Council. the instance is still of the uncreated
which 6th Council is this? could you provide a reference where I could look up what it said on this?

If you mean the 6th Ecumenical Council.. it seems that Council talked about Our Lord and His Divine and Human natures.. was there something there that linked to this topic? as for the distinction between Essence and Energies, it depends how it is meant - because Catholics believe in a distinction just not a formal one, which would go against Divine Simplicity. It doesn't mean there is no distinction of any sort, as Fr Garrigou-Lagrange says, the distinction is more than "mental" but less than "formal" (between Divine Essence and attributes, and between attributes themselves)
 
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Maryslittleflower

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I'm trying to put it together.. it seems like: Orthodox believe we participate in God's nature except for His 'essential identity', (ie: we don't become God), because of uncreated grace being distinct from God's Essence and because we don't see the Divine Essence directly... Catholics believe that we also participate in God's nature without becoming God.. but this is because we believe in "partial sharing" in God's nature in the Beatific Vision (we don't believe seeing His Essence leads to full substantial sharing), and also because of grace being accidental.
 
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ArmyMatt

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which 6th Council is this? could you provide a reference where I could look up what it said on this?

If you mean the 6th Ecumenical Council.. it seems that Council talked about Our Lord and His Divine and Human natures.. was there something there that linked to this topic? as for the distinction between Essence and Energies, it depends how it is meant - because Catholics believe in a distinction just not a formal one, which would go against Divine Simplicity. It doesn't mean there is no distinction of any sort, as Fr Garrigou-Lagrange says, the distinction is more than "mental" but less than "formal" (between Divine Essence and attributes, and between attributes themselves)

yes, it affirmed the divine operation is of the divine essence. which means only divine energy allows us to commune in the divine life.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I'm trying to put it together.. it seems like: Orthodox believe we participate in God's nature except for His 'essential identity', (ie: we don't become God), because of uncreated grace being distinct from God's Essence and because we don't see the Divine Essence directly... Catholics believe that we also participate in God's nature without becoming God.. but this is because we believe in "partial sharing" in God's nature in the Beatific Vision (we don't believe seeing His Essence leads to full substantial sharing), and also because of grace being accidental.

yes, we participate in God's energy fully and ever deepening, while His essence forever remains beyond us. and we cannot see His essence, but what we see is Christ in glory
 
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prodromos

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I'm trying to put it together.. it seems like: Orthodox believe we participate in God's nature except for His 'essential identity', (ie: we don't become God), because of uncreated grace being distinct from God's Essence and because we don't see the Divine Essence directly... Catholics believe that we also participate in God's nature without becoming God.. but this is because we believe in "partial sharing" in God's nature in the Beatific Vision (we don't believe seeing His Essence leads to full substantial sharing), and also because of grace being accidental.
What is the Catholic understanding of what happened to Moses on Mt Sinai? His face was glowing so brightly that he had to veil his face as the people found it difficult to look at him. How is this explained in Catholic theology?
 
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Maryslittleflower

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Here is a quite informative post that I came across that brings up some good points :) the point I think could be elaborated more on is the idea that the Catholic Church disagreed with the East on the distinction of Essence and Energies (if the East means it as a formal distinction, not a virtual one) - and how this particular disagreement between the East and the West came about / how it can be resolved.. but I thought it does a good job explaining Gregory Palamas and Barlaam and how Barlaam's views are not the full Catholic view, in fact his view differs in some important points. (maybe he was a Bishop, but his view as described is different, if that is accurate). Essence and Energies distinction?
 
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ArmyMatt

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the problem is this does not deal with why the idea of created grace is wrong. you cannot define grace as being of God, and then say that our experience is created grace of God's uncreated grace. it would be like saying it's okay to say there was a time when the Son was not, but He is still eternal.
 
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Maryslittleflower

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What is the Catholic understanding of what happened to Moses on Mt Sinai? His face was glowing so brightly that he had to veil his face as the people found it difficult to look at him. How is this explained in Catholic theology?

I haven't really looked into this, but - whenever there is miraculous light, we see it as miraculous but there's also the fact that we can see it with our eyes... how do we see spiritual things with our eyes? I guess I can't really answer the question though lack of knowledge, maybe there's something on the forum who knows, but it seems to me (just a guess) that Catholic theologians might consider this question from that perspective. Perhaps somehow has written on it..
 
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ArmyMatt

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I haven't really looked into this, but - whenever there is miraculous light, we see it as miraculous but there's also the fact that we can see it with our eyes... how do we see spiritual things with our eyes? I guess I can't really answer the question though lack of knowledge, maybe there's something on the forum who knows, but it seems to me (just a guess) that Catholic theologians might consider this question from that perspective. Perhaps somehow has written on it..

but that is what St John says, that the uncreated was beheld by physical eyes
 
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