Covenant Theology

[KelsayDL]

Hi all.

I would like to discuss covenant theology, more specifically the new covenant. Actually, I'd like to ask questions that I sorely need answers for.

I am not espousing any view, I'm looking for clarity on a great many issues since discovering MJ'ism.

My overall question for this topic is;

Are we even living under the new covenant?

I know the christians view inside and out. Please refrain from posting it. I'm not here to hear the view of mainstream christianity, nor debate with those in mainstream christianity, to be blunt.

I want the local Messianics pov (Yafet, Henanei, SW, and the rest!), if it resembles that of mainstream christianity, so be it.

Sorry to sound rude, but I've lived the christian pov for 20+ yrs. And it seems to be utterly lacking in sound doctrine.

Some of the main and most used verses supporting being under the new covenant are in Hebrews, whose authorship is attributed to Paul for the most part, but I totally disagree with that claim as Pauls writing style nowhere near resembles that of the author of Hebrews. But thats another issue...

Anyways, onto the verses from that piece of work;

Heb 8:8 -
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:13 -
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 12:24 -
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


What I find strange in these verses is that the word "new" in Hebrews means just what it says, new, as in replaced.

From Strongs-

kainos {kahee-nos'}

1) new

a) as respects form

1) recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn

b) as respects substance

1) of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of



Yet when referring to the scriptures the author is quoting from, in Jeremiah 31, the root of the word "new" means "renew, repair," and not "replaced".

From Strongs-

chadash {khaw-dash'}

1) to be new, renew, repair

a) (Piel)

1) to renew, make anew

2) to repair

b) (Hithpael) to renew oneself



Another point I'd like addressed occurs in Jer. 31 as well.

Notice verse 34;

31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them

Does all of the world (or even all of Israel if you prefer) know God today? Is his Torah written on our hearts? Do we know it inside and out, and how to apply it the way God meant it to be, in every instance presented before us in this life?

Do we not still teach men to seek God and learn his ways? Do WE not still seek to know God? Do we not cry out for wisdom and discernment from him?

Whats going on here?

 

[Sabian]

Here are some interesting verses in which David talks about YAHWEH's Covenant,

"KJV Psalm 103:1 Bless YAHWEH, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. 2 Bless YAHWEH, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: 3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; 4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; 5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's. 6 YAHWEH executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed. 7 He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel. 8 YAHWEH is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. 9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever. 10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. 11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. 12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. 13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so YAHWEH pitieth them that fear him. 14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust. 15 As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth. 16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more. 17 But the mercy of YAHWEH is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children; 18 To such as keep his COVENANT, and to those that remember his commandments to do them. 19 YAHWEH hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all. 20 Bless YAHWEH, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. 21 Bless ye YAHWEH, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure."


Interesting verses, especially in light of the fact that the Children of Israel were still bound by the Mt. Sinai covenant which we know is not the Covenant which provided Firstfruit inheritance. It appears to me that David recognized that there was yet another Covenant in place for those obeying YAHWEH and keeping His commandments. Also interesting, is the fact that the word "new" is not associated with this Covenant.

KJV Psalm 25:10 All the paths of YAHWEH are mercy and truth unto such as keep his COVENANT and his testimonies. 11 For thy name's sake, YAHWEH, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great. 12 What man is he that feareth YAHWEH? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. 13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth. 14 The secret of YAHWEH is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his COVENANT."

“Was Paul under the old or new Covenant?” Let’s consider the possibility that he was under both. Do you think that there is a conflict between the Old Covenant and the New, apart from the blood sacrifices? When I say conflict, I don’t mean physical versus spiritual, I just mean in those things that the Israelites were commanded to obey under the Old Covenant - the 10 commandments, the laws concerning how to deal with neighbors, the community, slaves, captives, etc., the Holy Days, the dietary laws, even vows and cleansings - things of that nature. I see no conflict until we come to the subject of blood sacrifices. There were meal offerings and drink offerings that required no bloodshed and I see no conflict with them, either. It seems to me that apart from the blood sacrifices, there is nothing in the Old Covenant that could not be obeyed either literally or in spirit by someone under the New Covenant.

Yahweh made promises to Abraham and his physical descendants concerning His being their God and them being His people, inheritance of the land, multiplying Abraham‘s seed, and all nations being blessed in his Seed (which was Yahshua). Those promises were given as part of the covenant made between Yahweh and Abraham, referred to in Gen. 17:7, 13 & 19 as an “everlasting covenant”, and it was sealed with circumcision. If it’s an everlasting covenant, then it’s still in effect now for physical Israel. We know that anyone may enter into the New Covenant, whether Jew or Gentile. If a circumcised Israelite enters into the New Covenant, does that mean that he is released or ejected from Old Covenant, is not subject to its rules, and has no part of the promises made to Abraham and his descendants? I don’t think so - Paul says in Rom. 11:28 & 29, “As concerning the gospel, they (Israel) are enemies for your (the Gentiles) sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for their fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” Repentance here is Strong’s #278 - “irrevocable”. Once the covenant is entered into, it is binding and everlasting, don’t you think?

If it’s possible that a person could be under both covenants at the same time then there’s no problem with Paul completing a vow in the temple, as long as completing the vow did not require a blood sacrifice. Acts 21:26 uses the word “offering” - Strong’s #4376 - “presentation; concretely an oblation (bloodless) or sacrifice.” Couldn’t Paul have offered a meal offering or a drink offering rather than a blood sacrifice? Do you think that those types of offerings were provided for especially for people in Paul’s situation? If he really was under both covenants, he had to have a way to follow the rules of the Old Covenant without violating the provisions of the New, and the meal offering or drink offering would satisfy that.

The Old Covenant was made with physical Israelites and concerns physical promises. The New Covenant is available to all and concerns spiritual promises. An Israelite who rejects Yahshua as the Messiah is still under the Old Covenant. An Israelite who accepts Yahshua is under both the Old Covenant and the New. A Gentile who accepts Yahshua is only under the New Covenant. A Messianic Israelite is in a unique position, subject physical rules as well as spiritual. It seems to me that this must be true, or else Paul’s situation in Acts 21:26 really would present a serious problem and create a lot of confusion.

Please give me your thoughts on this.

 

[KelsayDL]

Hi Sabian, thanks for your thoughts and comments.

But...

You largely ignored the texts I'm trying to reconcile one to another.

How can we be in the new covenant when it is quite apparent not every one knows God? We are all still seeking him and we are all teaching our neighbors when able to a certain extent, at least I hope so.

Please touch on the passages concerning the new covenant God spoke of in Jeremiah.

According to the author of Hebrews, that is the covenant that is here, today.

Yet, I don't see it.

The Old Covenant was made with physical Israelites and concerns physical promises.

Well, I don't know of all the promises contained therein, but while the covenant was made with Israel, there is ample scriptures speaking of the stranger joining himself to the LORD and taking hold of his covenant.

So I don't see it as being totally exclusive.

The New Covenant is available to all and concerns spiritual promises.

It's no more available to all than the so called old. One simply has to accept it and live it, yes?

An Israelite who rejects Yahshua as the Messiah is still under the Old Covenant. An Israelite who accepts Yahshua is under both the Old Covenant and the New. A Gentile who accepts Yahshua is only under the New Covenant. A Messianic Israelite is in a unique position, subject physical rules as well as spiritual.

Again, according to the new covenant I read about in Jeremiah, the one the author of Hebrews quotes directly from, we will no longer be teaching people to know God, for they all will know him.

It seems to me that this must be true, or else Paul’s situation in Acts 21:26 really would present a serious problem and create a lot of confusion.

Well, Pauls fruit seems to be confusion.

They had a hard time understanding him back then, and we still do today.

 

[Sabian]

Yes I understand I did not give you all of what you are looking for. This topic is touchy and I wanted to say some things about the New covenent first. Look at this.

I find it very interesting that many people and organizations have been teaching that we are under the so-called "new testament", yet choose to offer no explanation whatsover as to why the definitions of this covenant are not yet in affect, as if just saying the words make it so.
"KJV Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know YHWH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
1. Do we still teach our brethren?
2. Does everyone know YHWH from the least to the greatest?
3. Does YHWH still remember our sins today?
It is very clear, in my view, the anwers to these questions which fundamentally prove that this "new covenant" talked about in Jeremiah CAN NOT be in affect today.
And, again, there are serious grammatical questions for the source texts that are being used to prove the "new" covenant in YAHSHUA's Passover commentary. In my view, YAHSHUA did not use the word "new".
Another tidbit of information for all of you, the word for "better",used as an adjective in most of the Hebrew source text, has been place in front of the nouns such as promises. This is in error to the fundamental Greek grammar used throughout the New Testament.
I present this information to you for discussion, not division. Everyone will continue to worship and believe in YHWH as they see fit. That is perfectly fine and I encourage that. Because, I understand that if we do not live what we believe, our ignorance and sin will be held against us. However, living our belief does allow YHWH to wink at our ignorance and forgive us as we continuely pray for that forgiveness.
Note that the new Covenant is made with the house of IsraEL and the house of YAHUDAH. Nothing is mentioned in making any Covenant with Gentiles. Neither do we find the new Covenant is made with the "church" (Greek ekklesia—meaning "the called out ones"). Paul boldly states the Covenants are with his kinsmen IsraEL:
Who are IsraELites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of ELOHIM, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom is Messiah as concerning the flesh, who is over all, ELOHIM blessed for ever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of ELOHIM hath come to nought. For they are not all IsraEL, that are of IsraEL:" (Rom. 9:4-6 ASV)
The Promises of the covenants go to IsraEL. IsraEL is to be teachers of the Law both now and in the Kingdom! Israel is to make YHWH known to the world!
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith Yahweh, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." (Hebrews 10:16 AV)
If the Law's of YHWH are writen on your heart shouldn't you be able to explain them?
"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? By no means! but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." Romans 11:11
And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins." Romans 11:24-27
So when did this happen. The laws will be writen on our heart and are sins will be taken away. Has this happened Yet?
"KJV Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them."
This sounds like the right time period.
Please find the following verses which I believe support beyond a doubt the fact that a covenant of Faith exists,
"..KJV Luke 1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham.
KJV Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which YHWH hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the YHWH raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which YHWH made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first YHWH, having raised up his Son YAHSHUA, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
KJV Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that YHWH would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of YHWH, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 YAHSHUA hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through YAHSHUA MESSIAH; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith..."
I would suggest reading the entire chapter of Hebrews 11 which details this topic as best as it can get.

That should Help alittle more.

 

[koilias]

What's "new" is the writing of the Covenant of the Circumcision on the heart. It is still the same covenant, but circumcizing the heart not the outward circumcision.

I think you've heard my view already so I won't repeat it. I would only say that mine does not represent mainstream Christianity (for I want to uphold the Torah), but in fact comes straight from digesting the Rabbis.

In Judaism there are three pillars that hold up the world: Torah, Hesed, and Prayer. These three represent the Covenant in its totality. Moshe brought Torah, Yeshua brought Hesed and Prayer is up to us.

Blessings!

 

[Sabian]

I also have some papers that question the word (new)
It states that the word New might have been added to the greek text in some places In front of the word Testament.
I can not find the whole Paper but did find some of it but it is in greek and I can not post most of what I have.

Some of the texted in question are matt. 26:28 , Mark 14:24, 1Corinthians 11:25, 2 cor 3:6 Hebrews 9:15 and Luke 22:20

As ststed in many Greek Texyual Commentaries the greek word for New has been added in front of the noun for Testament.In the accounts of Luke and Corinthians, However we do have an entire new testament that clearly shows the proper Greek Textual Grammer for Adjectives Modifing Nouns,
always occuring after the nouns correctly.

Noun / adj examples are found in Matt 9:7, Mark 2:22 and Lk 5:38 Greek text

 

[Sabian]

Found some more This states that Matt 26:28 should read like this For this is my Blood of the Covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

A textual commentary on mark 14:24

It is much more likely that the greek word Kaivns is a scribal addition, Dereved from the parallel accounts in luke 22:20 and 1 cor 11:25 than that being present originally.
So does anyone else have anymore information on the word NEW