Covenant and New Covenant theology

[mkgal1]

But it does not follow that the body of Christ is the new Israel. That is your belief.

Others will separate that body from national Israel. As Romans 11 explained, God still has a plan for national Israel.

And yet others separate the ancient faithful remnant from the Israel of God and *replace* them with a secular political nation that has nothing to do with what's written in the Bible. So which group truly is advocating for a replacement theology?

Notice the timing of Romans 11 (we are not in the present time of the authorship of Romans - nor is that future to us):

Romans 11:4-6 ~
4And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”b5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.c​

 

[mkgal1]

Can you show us where Paul divided the Old Covenant into "the moral law", and "the ceremonial law"?

Paul was making some sort of distinction here, between Adam's transgression/sin and the sins that resulted from the Law of Moses:

Romans 5:13-14 ~ For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
14Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come.​

 

[BABerean2]

This is not a sufficient argument, however. The term "Holy Trinity" is found in the westminster confession of faith, but not in the Bible. Therefore, we should not hold to the doctrine of the trinity, as it is not found in scripture? No of course not.

In an anonymous survey many pastors revealed that they were viewing on-line inappropriate contentography on a regular basis.
Apparently, they believed they were not committing adultery.


The passage below reveals the higher standard of the New Covenant.

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

.......................................


Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

.......................................

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

........................................

You are arguing with Paul in the text below, instead of with me.
Is Paul's argument sufficient?

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


What was written and engraved on stones?

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[mkgal1]

You thus see the Body of Christ also included in the house of Israel and with the house of Judah?

It depends on who you mean by "Body of Christ".

If you mean simply the believers and followers of Christ that were in covenant under the Mosaic Law in Jesus's day....then yes. This passage is addressing a specific time and specific group of people.

Something interesting to consider about God's grace and sovereignty:

Exodus 32:28
The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people fell dead.​

Acts 2:41 ~
Those who embraced his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to the believers that day.​

Note that the 3000 Israelites who died at Sinai were typologically restored, in a sense, at Pentecost.

 

[Christian Gedge]

The ark is a picture of the work of Christ: the priesthood, God's moral standard, and the mercy seat. This is all found in the new covenant, the shadows are now the reality.

Well, of course. That is my point; shadows is what they were.

When the old covenant was superseded by the new, it wasn't God's righteous standards that were superseded, I believe it was the agreement between God and the nation of Israel that was superseded.

I would agree with what you are saying here. But, again, that is the point NCT is making. The decalogue, like the levitical priesthood, was done away. God's righteous standards are far wider and freeing than a summary written on 2 stones. The Law of Christ remains.

 

[claninja]

In an anonymous survey many pastors revealed that they were viewing on-line inappropriate contentography on a regular basis.
Apparently, they believed they were not committing adultery.


The passage below reveals the higher standard of the New Covenant.

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

.......................................


Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

.......................................

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

........................................

I believe the new covenant reveals a higher standard that was always there.

IMHO, this is not Jesus setting a new standard for His people, but revealing how high the standard already was, and how far we are from fully obeying even when we think we are.

I don't believe God's standard became higher with the new covenant. I believe God's moral standard never changes and is eternal. Our understanding may have changed through the revelation of Christ, but the standard has always been the same.

You are arguing with Paul in the text below, instead of with me.
Is Paul's argument sufficient?

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


What was written and engraved on stones?

No, I agree with Paul, that the AGREEMENT (old covenant) to perform ALL the works of the law, as represented by the tablets of stone containing the 10 commandments, for earthly blessings was a ministry of death, as evidenced by the nation of Israel's multiple failed attempts and punishments through out the old testament.

 

[mkgal1]

The passage below reveals the higher standard of the New Covenant.

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I don't believe the Law of Moses was actually given by God in Deuteronomy. I believe God allowed it....and used it for His good purpose.

Divorce was also allowed (as a concession) under the Law of Moses - but that seems to be a "lesser of two evils". Thomas Aquinas wrote that it appeared that since divorce had been outlawed prior to the Law of Moses....men were killing their wives out of the hardness of their hearts.

Matthew 19:8 ~ Jesus replied, “Moses permitted divorce only as a concession to your hard hearts, but it was not what God had originally intended. ​

The Law of Moses was a temporary covenant that the Israelites entered into willfully accepting the curses of death......but God (from my beliefs) always had a plan of grace in order to offer life instead of death.

 

[BABerean2]

I don't believe the Law of Moses was actually given by God in Deuteronomy. I believe God allowed it....and used it for His good purpose.

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.
Deu 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face on the mountain from the midst of the fire.


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[mkgal1]

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.
Deu 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face on the mountain from the midst of the fire.


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What I'm understanding right now (my heels aren't dug in on this) is, yes, the covenant was definitely between God and the Israelites (and they agreed to the terms of the covenant) but I'm believing that Moses drafted up those laws. I believe it's much like the human kings they had asked for. God allowed them to have that....warning them how human kings were far inferior than the True King in God they had (that King David recognized ).

Can you show me differently?

 

[BABerean2]

What I'm understanding right now (my heels aren't dug in on this) is, yes, the covenant was definitely between God and the Israelites (and they agreed to the terms of the covenant) but I'm believing that Moses drafted up those laws. I believe it's much like the human kings they had asked for. God allowed them to have that....warning them how human kings were far inferior than the True King in God they had (that King David recognized ).

Can you show me differently?

Are you saying the other 603 laws came from the mind of Moses, instead of from God?

Many of those laws dealt with how they were to keep the ten commandments.

For example, if a neighbor's ox came over and stole your grass, how were they to handle that situation.

The dietary laws were needed to keep the people safe from parasites, etc.

The washing with water mixed with ashes was a disinfectant, because ashes contain Sodium Hydroxide.


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[mkgal1]

Are you saying the other 603 laws came from the mind of Moses, instead of from God?

Many of those laws dealt with how they were to keep the ten commandments.

For example, if a neighbor's ox came over and stole your grass, how were they to handle that situation.

I believe the Deuteronomical laws came from what Moses understood about the heart of God and also what Moses knew about the Israelites (like their hardened hearts, for example).

I'm open to change my mind, if you can show me otherwise.

 

[BABerean2]

I believe the Deuteronomical laws came from what Moses understood about the heart of God and also what Moses knew about the Israelites (like their hardened hearts, for example).

I'm open to change my mind, if you can show me otherwise.

What happened to Moses the one time he did not follow God's command, and struck the rock instead?

.

 

[Guojing]

I'm what Paul was.

And as mkgal1 has incisively explained, he was an expansion theologian.

Okay, naturally those who follow that doctrine will believe what you have stated.

 

[mkgal1]

What happened to Moses the one time he did not follow God's command, and struck the rock instead?

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I don't know what that has to do with whether or not it was God who directly and specifically gave the laws in Deuteronomy to Moses?

We know God was in covenant with the Israelites.....and that both sides agreed with the terms. Deuteronomy 28 informs us of the curses the Israelites agreed to.....however, i believe God always planned on offering spiritual life where the Mosaic covenant reaped death.

 

[jgr]

Okay, naturally those who follow that doctrine will believe what you have stated.

True. And those still deciding what doctrine to follow have evidence upon which to base their decision.

 

[claninja]

Well, of course. That is my point; shadows is what they were.

correct me if I am wrong, but I’m pretty sure covenant theology and nct agree here: OT shadow of reality in NT.

the difference would be that NCT views the covenants more as dispensations, while covenant theology views it as one overarching theme of works and grace leading to redemption in Christ.

I would agree with what you are saying here. But, again, that is the point NCT is making. The decalogue, like the levitical priesthood, was done away. God's righteous standards are far wider and freeing than a summary written on 2 stones. The Law of Christ remains.

both nct and covenant theology both agree that the shadow of the Levitical priest was fulfilled in Christ and made obsolete for God’s people in the new covenant.

NCT theology, from what I have read about it, holds that the Law of Christ is a new, higher standard standard for Christian Living. This is done by using Matthew 5 as evidence.

covenant theology, on the other hand, believes that the moral standard of God has not changed. The law of Christ is the very same moral standard going all the way back to the garden of Eden. What is revealed Throughout the Bible is a progressive revelation of how high the Standard has always been, and how impossible it is for us to perfectly obey this standard.

this is where I would agree with covenant theology over nct. However I do agree with nct over covenant theology in regards to the sabbath.

covenant theology sees the sabbath as a moral law, where I would say the NT demonstrates it as more of a ceremonial law (Colossians 2:16-17).

 

[Zao is life]

This thread's subject:

I would like for those who subscribe to either or both, explain/comment what those are and the difference between the two - if there is one?

Also why there appears to be such a battle going on between Covenant and New Covenant theology vs dispensationalsim?

Your title suggests there are only two covenants, but after the covenant God made with Noah and all flesh, there are a further four covenants, plus one oath:

1. The Covenant God made with Abraham, made by God unilaterally, and established by God's oath, (See Genesis 17:7-8 Hebrews 6:16-17 and Galatians 3:16-17). The promises belong to Christ and are fulfilled in and by Christ.

2. The Covenant God made with Israel through Moses (See Exodus 24:7-8).

3. The Covenant God made with king David concerning his seed, throne and royal family line (See Psalm 89:34-37 ):

I profane not My covenant, And that which is going forth from My lips I change not.
Once I have sworn by My holiness that I will not lie to David.
Once I have sworn by My holiness, I lie not to David,
His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
It shall be established forever like the moon, and like a faithful witness in the heavens. Selah. Psalm 89:34-37

4. The New Covenant, established in Christ's blood (See Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Luke 22:20).

In addition, there is the oath to Jesus in Psalm 110:4 :

The LORD has sworn, and will not repent, You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Paul stated that the Law does not replace the Covenant God made with Abraham (see Galatians 3:17 ).

The only covenant which is replaced by the New Covenant, therefore, is the Covenant of Law made through Moses.

God's purpose has never changed and from Genesis 3:15 onward, we see God's salvation of the believing part of the Adamic race unfolding in stages. There was never a "Plan A" until the deluge that was followed by a "Plan B". It was always Plan A - and just as Noah and his family were saved in the ark and by the ark, so with the exception of Joshua and Caleb, none of the generation which entered the wilderness, entered the promised land - only the generation born in the wilderness entered under Joshua's leadership. This is the still the status quo, today:

"And as Isaiah said before, "Unless the Lord of hosts had left us a seed, we would have been as Sodom, and would have been like Gomorrah." Romans 9:29.

Jesus came for the remnant of the house of Judah and the remnant of the Gentiles, and He has not returned yet, so His Plan A is still unfolding before our very eyes.

Giving this fact a title ending with .. ism just confuses the Word of God - all these isms just add mud to the water, IMO.

 

[mkgal1]

Are you saying the other 603 laws came from the mind of Moses, instead of from God?

Many of those laws dealt with how they were to keep the ten commandments.

For example, if a neighbor's ox came over and stole your grass, how were they to handle that situation.

The dietary laws were needed to keep the people safe from parasites, etc.

The washing with water mixed with ashes was a disinfectant, because ashes contain Sodium Hydroxide.


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We both agree the Mosaic Covenant was always meant to be temporary (right?) so I'm not sure if this really matters to this discussion....but this, I believe, is where the Israelites chose their own way over God's way. Not that it caught God off guard....obviously He is sovereign and omniscient....but they refused to hear directly from God right from their beginning:

Exodus 20:19 ~ Speak to us yourself and we will listen,” they said to Moses. “But do not let God speak to us, or we will die.”

Romans 1:28 ~ Furthermore, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
​

.....but God is not mocked....so the curses they agreed to had to have been meted out - and I believe that was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Jesus and His disciples were warning of that impending judgment upon the city and the temple system.

 

[klutedavid]

I believe the new covenant reveals a higher standard that was always there.

IMHO, this is not Jesus setting a new standard for His people, but revealing how high the standard already was, and how far we are from fully obeying even when we think we are.

I don't believe God's standard became higher with the new covenant. I believe God's moral standard never changes and is eternal. Our understanding may have changed through the revelation of Christ, but the standard has always been the same.




No, I agree with Paul, that the AGREEMENT (old covenant) to perform ALL the works of the law, as represented by the tablets of stone containing the 10 commandments, for earthly blessings was a ministry of death, as evidenced by the nation of Israel's multiple failed attempts and punishments through out the old testament.

I don't think anyone could obey the law. The law was there for Christ to fulfill, after all, Moses and the law were written about Jesus.

Jesus in the sermon on the mount was announcing that no one was eligible, no one was perfect, the law condemns absolutely.

Romans 3:9-12
Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have become useless. There is none who does good, there is not even one.”

A righteous person does not exist. It is difficult to accept but this is certainly true. All the law does is hold a mirror to your face and tell you in no uncertain terms. That you commit evil, you think evil thoughts, and you were never righteous.

 

[Douggg]

I watched this video on You Tube. Is one view of the difference between Covenant theology and Dispensationalism.