Courtship/dating

[DZoolander]

But I can't help thinking that maybe God wishes He could work that way more often, but many times people just don't allow Him to.

I dunno - I just don't see life that way. I don't believe God meddles around in people's personal affairs, lays out a plan for them, provides them partners, etc. Rather, I think it's all essentially random and He's off in the distance.

For example - I'm married to a wonderful woman. Why? Because the confluence of events at the time made me think that it was a good idea to take that one seriously.

However - I have no doubt that there have been many women in my life that I could have had an opportunity with that for whatever circumstance there was I passed up on - or they passed up with me on. Maybe it just made more sense to turn right that day than it did to turn left - and had I turned left at that moment I'd be married to someone else.

Or say that I had eaten an extra spicy chicken taco on the day that it occurred to me to take my now-wife seriously and I'd been in a foul mood...and things had been different. Say we'd just passed like 2 ships in the night unaware of what could have been. I have no doubt that whatever months or years later - I'd have met someone else that seemed like the embodiment of what I wanted and I'd have made the decision then to take that woman seriously.

The appearance of God's hand in those things IMHO is often little more than just circumstantial unawareness of other options (whether it be by choice or just simple bad timing) - and the truth of the matter is that with 7 billion people in the world - people are like busses. There'll be another one along in 5 minutes.

 

[mkgal1]

It depends on what you mean by "bring marriage into it".

I was just saying that the guy's question was about moving the relationship from friendship to dating. I jumped the gun (I think) by mentioning marriage (mostly because that was my mindset back then. It'd been drilled into me that dating with the intent to marry is the way to go). While it may be the ultimate goal....that doesn't mean it's the goal with each person....besides...this girl may not have thought of him in that way.

I don't know. It's a pretty difficult system to navigate with everyone having different beliefs. Is a date just a date.....or after seeing someone two or three times is it now a "relationship"? It just seems to me that things ought to be able to just form in a sort of organic kind of way.

 

[mkgal1]

I think it's rather insulting to say that people who approach members of the O.S. with the ultimate goal of marriage being part of the equation, are somehow being weird or overbearing or crazy

Where are you getting it that that has been suggested, though? I hope it's from nothing I've said, because I'm not really saying that the ultimate goal of marriage being part of the equation is off the table.....just that the idea of beginning a relationship with that commitment seems backwards to me ("backwards" as in it should come later ....not "backwards" as in weird).

 

[Inkachu]

I was just saying that the guy's question was about moving the relationship from friendship to dating. I jumped the gun (I think) by mentioning marriage (mostly because that was my mindset back then. It'd been drilled into me that dating with the intent to marry is the way to go). While it may be the ultimate goal....that doesn't mean it's the goal with each person....besides...this girl may not have thought of him in that way.

I don't know. It's a pretty difficult system to navigate with everyone having different beliefs. Is a date just a date.....or after seeing someone two or three times is it now a "relationship"? It just seems to me that things ought to be able to just form in a sort of organic kind of way.

I have the feeling that my point of view is just too far removed from everyone else on this topic. It's probably best that I just not participate in the conversation.

 

[mkgal1]

I have the feeling that my point of view is just too far removed from everyone else on this topic. It's probably best that I just not participate in the conversation.

Even if your opinion is the polar opposite from mine (which I don't think it is).....I'd still want to hear your input.

 

[Inkachu]

Where are you getting it that that has been suggested, though? I hope it's from nothing I've said, because I'm not really saying that the ultimate goal of marriage being part of the equation is off the table.....just that the idea of beginning a relationship with that commitment seems backwards to me ("backwards" as in it should come later ....not "backwards" as in weird).

I agree with you. You don't go on a date thinking "OK, I have to marry this person because we're going on a date". That's preposterous.

I didn't mean that you had insulted me... that came out wrong... I was just referring to the general attitude that so many people have towards courtship, even my own modified definition of it. Like, if you AREN'T dating dozens of people and going through fifty casual relationships before you get married, you're a moron and you're doing it all wrong. As if you can't possibly know what you're doing if you simply wait on a "yes" from God, and then move forward once you've gotten your "yes", and that person is the only person you have a relationship with for the rest of your life. I think that's a beautiful way to do it, but our culture seems to think it's laughable and stupid and joke-worthy.

 

[Inkachu]

Even if your opinion is the polar opposite from mine (which I don't think it is).....I'd still want to hear your input.

I know, and I appreciate that.

I'll answer questions if anyone wants to ask something directly. But I just find that it's difficult for me to explain what I mean on this topic, and that frustrates me.

 

[mkgal1]

But should he keep "could this relationship become marriage-worthy" in the back of his mind as he gets to know her more? Certainly.

Shouldn't the gal be on-board with that as well? I mean.....what if he wastes time misunderstanding their friendship and getting his hopes up?

The thing is....the two of them had been seeing each other as friends for quite a while (I'm unsure of how long). They'd not ever had the discussion of "dating" or "courting" each other. His question was, "how long should we be friends before I propose courtship?". He doesn't know if she's interested in him (that way). What if she wasn't? There just seems to be such possibility for huge let-downs (what I was understanding as what was to be avoided) with courtship. The whole attitude that this author's grandmother seemed to have was more of everything being much more casual (and "casual" doesn't mean "without integrity"....it actually seems to allow for more honesty, but less heartbreak).

 

[mkgal1]

I know, and I appreciate that.

I'll answer questions if anyone wants to ask something directly. But I just find that it's difficult for me to explain what I mean on this topic, and that frustrates me.

Sorry

 

[Hetta]

more honesty, but less heartbreak

Very good MKGal. I like that phrase.

 

[DZoolander]

I've always felt that love, loyalty, etc...ought to evolve over time. I've never understood people that are "all in" right from the get-go.

After my first date with "you", I'm about as loyal to you as I could be after spending an hour with a relative stranger. After my second date, if I liked you enough the first time to want one, I'm about as loyal as two hours warrants.

My feelings, loyalty, intent, etc...grow over time. I love my wife more today than I did last year...which was more than I loved her the year before...etc.

Being so intense with things from the get-go is just odd to me. Sure - if someone displays overt traits that makes you think "God, that person sure would suck as a spouse." - then yeah - don't date them. But - short of something egregious like that - go out with them and see where it heads. If something pops up - drop them. Whatever.

 

[Inkachu]

Shouldn't the gal be on-board with that as well? I mean.....what if he wastes time misunderstanding their friendship?

The thing is....the two of them had been seeing each other as friends for quite a while (I'm unsure of how long). They'd not ever had the discussion of "dating" or "courting" each other. His question was, "how long should we be friends before I propose courtship?". He doesn't know if she's interested in him (that way). What if she wasn't? There just seems to be such possibility for huge let-downs (what I was understanding as what was to be avoided) with courtship. The whole attitude that this author's grandmother seemed to have was more of everything being much more casual (and "casual" doesn't mean "without integrity"....it actually seems to allow for more honesty, but less heartbreak).

If he's already considering asking her to enter courtship, then it's already moved beyond a casual friendship on his end. He just hasn't said it out loud yet. If they're both eligible, single, young adults, then it's only a matter of time before one of them winds up in a relationship with another person anyway. It's not as if they can remain platonic friends for life. If he's thinking that he wants to court her, what is his hesitation in asking her about it? I'm kinda confused as to how "casual" means less heartbreak? At some point they're going to have to broach the subject of "do we want to be romantic with each other, or with other people"? Carrying on in a casual friendship won't change that inevitability.

 

[DZoolander]

I agree with Inkachu there. If he's already wanting it to progress - then the relationship has reached a transitional moment.

I always found that having long winded discussions about those types of things was stupid and counterproductive though. If you enjoy each other's company - and seem to want to keep it going - start with something simple like trying to hold her hand as you're walking along. If she pulls away or gives body language like she isn't interested - you have your cue.

 

[mkgal1]

I think the way people talk about "dating lots of people" the picture that paints (or *used to paint*) in my mind used to be equated with loose morals (like the terms, "playing the field".....even just "player"...all of that ties into dishonesty and manipulation).

Reading this article, though, I can see how (if the whole structure is set up differently) this approach can be more in line with good morals (things like respect; loyalty; lack of entitlement; self-control; honesty...etc).

 

[mkgal1]

I think this article parallels this discussion:

RETHINKING CHARM
As a society, we place a high value on charm; when we meet new people, we love it if they are very quickly smooth, funny, entertaining, and flattering. We are charmed when they seem immediately ready to jump into doing favors for us. We love confidence, lively story-telling, and a sharp personal appearance.

And it all can be bad news.

This is a hard pattern to overcome. We have been so heavily taught by our culture, by romantic stories, by television and movies, and by popular songs, to fall in love with charm that we are addicted to it. We run after it like children after the Pied Piper, thinking it will deeply meet our cravings. And it usually leads either nowhere -- which is okay, but disappointing -- or into harm.

It's not our fault that we got hooked on charm, given our societal training, but we need to get past it. Abusers tend to be charming. Sociopaths tend to be charming. People with personality disorders tend to be charming. Con artists tend to be charming. Users tend to be charming.

Is every charming person exploitative? No. But charm is not a good sign. We need to do a 180 degree turn in how we think about charm. Our current thinking is:

"Because you are so charming, I will need a mountain of bad experience to convince me that you are actually not a trustworthy person."

We need to switch this to its opposite:

"Because you are so charming, I will need a mountain of good experience to conclude that you are okay."~Healing and Hope: RETHINKING CHARM

 

[Hetta]

yes, I think that when my eldest son was apart from his GF earlier this year, I did want him to be like a single guy, and encouraged him to hang out with other adults his age - male and female. But this was not meant for him to have sex with numerous other young women, and this has always been clear in the way that we have raised our kids. I would have loved for our son to date other girls as friends or a romantic interest, but he did not.

 

[mkgal1]

If he's already considering asking her to enter courtship, then it's already moved beyond a casual friendship on his end. He just hasn't said it out loud yet. If they're both eligible, single, young adults, then it's only a matter of time before one of them winds up in a relationship with another person anyway. It's not as if they can remain platonic friends for life. If he's thinking that he wants to court her, what is his hesitation in asking her about it? I'm kinda confused as to how "casual" means less heartbreak? At some point they're going to have to broach the subject of "do we want to be romantic with each other, or with other people"? Carrying on in a casual friendship won't change that inevitability.

Why couldn't they remain platonic friends for life?

I guess that's just another thing I see with this frame of mind---that a man and woman can't be *just* friends.

A few of my closest friends are guys from way back in my junior high and high school days (they are now like brothers to me---they are my remaining "family"). My husband has even made mention of how he feels more accepted by these friends and their families than he does his own brother and family. We cherish our relationship with them.

Anyway.....that was a bit of a diversion. The question as to why casual is less heartbreak? Well.....you see the huge anxiety about just approaching the subject of "when is the right time to propose courtship?" See the similarity there to an engagement? It should be more along the lines of what EZoo described (and what you, Inka, just said..."what's the hesitation?")---a casual gesture to see where the person's thoughts are.....or a casual question.....not this huge build-up (which has the tendency to become a huge let down or heartbreak). IOW....the more intense the emotions....the greater the heart break. Just like EZoo described.....loyalty and commitment should evolve---not be labels that are slapped onto certain people and then the behavior is followed accordingly (which is the description of what I've experienced courtship to be----I'm not presuming that's your concept of it, Inka).

 

[Inkachu]

I think situations like that - where a man and woman can remain close friends (so close they feel like "family") all through their lives, including separate marriages - are the exception rather than the rule. Especially if there's any history of romantic attachment.

There doesn't have to be "huge anxiety" or "huge build up" if he wants to approach the topic of courtship with this girl. That's completely his choice. He can make it as casual or as intense as he decides to make it. There's absolutely no need for some big let down or heartbreak. If they're good, close friends, then they should be able to be honest with each other, without it jeopardizing their friendship.

There's a big difference (IMO) between a good friend asking if she thinks there might be potential for more than a friendship, and him getting down and proclaiming undying love with a bouquet of roses and totally freaking her out.

 

[DZoolander]

Well, once again, I think that it's ill advised to tell people to have drawn out talks about stuff. Chance favors the bold - IMHO...lol

Like, this is a bad example for this board, but I'll be risque and tell it anyhow as it does kinda illustrate the concept.

I knew this guy that had a HUGE thing for this girl a while back. He took her out - he paid for everything - he did this - he did that - but for some odd reason kept the appearance that it was platonic interest. I guess he was hoping to eek his way in via all these gestures until she said "hey, how about we date?" or something.

Well, on one of their outings, she tells him that she'd banged around with some guy that worked at a smoothie shop near her house...and my friend was all up in arms over it. He kept lamenting to me how all of his gestures were for naught, and she gave it up to the "smoothie guy".

Really had no sympathy for the guy, to be honest. I asked him "Well, did you even try?"

"No...I was working up to it."

"Well, the smoothie guy tried...and there you have it."

---

Getting back to more "pure" pursuits though - I think the same concept applies. I intend to tell my son that if he likes a girl, try holding her hand. That will earn him far more points than some long winded uncomfortable "Can you see us together?" type of nonsense - and he'll know her feelings by her reaction just the same.

 

[Hetta]

I will have to ask one of my other sons for the details but his method was to "talk" to a girl, okay, bear with me, it's a little more complicated than a casual chat. At different times in the past year or so he would mention a girl he was interested in, and when I asked if they were dating he would say "no, we're just talking". It was as though it was some kind of negotiation, you know, the Camp David peace process or something! With the girl he has been dating now for a year, and is very much in love with, he "talked to" her for about a month before he asked her out. He even invited us to meet her for dinner before he even asked her out. LOL. She is a different race and he also raised that with us, which wasn't an issue, but it was funny that he wanted everything negotiated with us, as well as with her. I think his girl is a keeper, and he thinks so too, and I admire him for the way he went about getting to know a girl before he dated her. He did briefly date one girl for a month and that didn't work out, so perhaps that was why he decided to do a lot of talking before he dated again.