Could Peter have done otherwise?

[fhansen]

So Peter could not have done other.

We don't know. When all the parameters are in the right place he should do the right thing, but some folks may and some may not. In hindsight since he did do what he did, he could not have done other, but that's the same whether or not an all-knowing God even exists.

 

[Hammster]

Yes (fun, isn't it).

No. And no.

 

[Hammster]

We don't know. When all the parameters are in the right place he should do the right thing, but some folks may and some may not. In hindsight since he did do what he did, he could not have done other, but that's the same whether or not an all-knowing God even exists.

If he did otherwise, what would that say about what Jesus said?

 

[fhansen]

If he did otherwise, what would that say about what Jesus said?

If he did otherwise, Jesus wouldn't have said it, knowing that it wouldn't happen.

 

[zoidar]

Yes, I agree, but it's a prophecy, which we recognize God's superior understanding of, wait for it, the truth of the future, not just the truth of the present. So what you're saying is that the future changed, and God's knowledge of the future changed along with it.

I could give you possible ideas how it might work, but I prefer to say it's a mystery. I don't fully know how. I wouldn't go there and say it means God doesn't know everything, because I am quite certain He does.

 

[Hammster]

If he did otherwise, Jesus wouldn't have said it, knowing that it wouldn't happen.

So again, Peter could not have done other.

 

[fhansen]

So again, Peter could not have done other.

No more than you couldn't do other than what you did yesterday.

 

[Hammster]

No more than you couldn't do other than what you did yesterday.

Exactly. Whatever God knows will happen will happen.

 

[fhansen]

Exactly. Whatever God knows will happen will happen.

He can't help but know-He's God! IOW. even if there was some hypothetical world where God didn't know every detail of everything that happens in creation, including our choices, those things would still happen. And whatever happened yesterday would still be set in stone.

God exists outside of time. We, however live in time so that each decision is made- and their results experienced- chronologically.

 

[Hammster]

He can't help but know-He's God! IOW. even if there was some hypothetical world where God didn't know every detail of everything that happens in creation, including our choices, those things would still happen. And whatever happened yesterday would still be set in stone.

God exists outside of time. We, however live in time so that each decision is made- and their results experienced- chronologically.

Everything in the future is set in stone as well.

 

[Guojing]

You said “
Think of God as living outside time, he could see your past, present and future simultaneously.

So when he sees Peter denying him in the future, he knows it in the present. But he did not cause Peter to deny him.”

I take this to mean that the reason Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him is because Jesus “saw” it would happen.

Am I correct so far?

Yes, but that does not mean Peter is reasoning in the same manner as you.

 

[Derf]

No. And no.

Then, you would say that God was not expecting to learn anything from Adam that day--that all of the animal's names were predetermined, right? In the same way that Peter's denial was predetermined?

 

[Derf]

I could give you possible ideas how it might work, but I prefer to say it's a mystery. I don't fully know how. I wouldn't go there and say it means God doesn't know everything, because I am quite certain He does.

I would be interested to hear your suggestions. Without them you leave me no choice but to say that God lied to Hezekiah. Hezzy was given two opposite/conflicting prophecies of his future, one of which did not come to pass, both were from the Lord, both were delivered by the same messenger.

 

[fhansen]

Everything in the future is set in stone as well.

And, again, thinkers can and have debated that point without regard to God. So what would your defense be as a defense attorney in a murder trial? "My client had no choice, because before he even pulled the trigger it was set in stone that he would pull the trigger-all predetermined, IOW!"

And if he decided not to pull the trigger, then that would be set in stone too.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, but that does not mean Peter is reasoning in the same manner as you.

Did Jesus also see Himself telling Peter that he would deny Him?

 

[Hammster]

Then, you would say that God was not expecting to learn anything from Adam that day--that all of the animal's names were predetermined, right? In the same way that Peter's denial was predetermined?

God doesn’t learn. Learning indicates change. God doesn’t change. He’s immutable.

 

[Hammster]

And, again, thinkers can and have debated that point without regard to God. So what would your defense be as a defense attorney in a murder trial? "My client had no choice, because before he even pulled the trigger it was set in stone that he would pull the trigger-all predetermined, IOW!"

I tell the client to get a new lawyer.

And if he decided not to pull the trigger, then that would be set in stone too.

And we would never know.

 

[zoidar]

I would be interested to hear your suggestions. Without them you leave me no choice but to say that God lied to Hezekiah. Hezzy was given two opposite/conflicting prophecies of his future, one of which did not come to pass, both were from the Lord, both were delivered by the same messenger.

God does not only know the actual outcomes of things but also potential outcomes. The prophecy He gave to Hezekiah was a potential outcome, leaving for Hezekiah to respond to it. Of course God knew Hezekiah would respond, but the outcome at the time of the prophecy was that he would die, but God was willing to change that. So God gave first Hezekiah the prophecy of the potential outcome.

 

[fhansen]

I tell the client to get a new lawyer.

And we would never know.

??

 

[Hammster]

??

???