Could dinosaurs have been purposely excluded from the Ark for some reason?

[Halbhh]

To me Genesis doesn't read like a revelation (like Revelation). It reads likes like a chronological statement of events. And what cements that for me is the mentioning (6 times!) of "the evening and the morning" after each day's activity. That's not dreamy. That's chronological. God is itemizing what He did each day. The title of "Revelation" tells us how it was presented to John. Genesis is completely different.

It sounds like you are agreeing with me, but may not realize it.

Maybe it's unfortunate I used the term "revelation" to refer to the vision, since that appears to hace made you think that i said Genesis 1 is like the book Revelation in every way, while it's only alike in a few ways, such as being from God -- that is, revealed to us.

('revelation' means something revealed; I.e. revelation: "the divine or supernatural disclosure to humans of something relating to human existence or the world.")

My fault for not writing more clearly perhaps.

 

[GodLovesCats]

There's a problem with the old Earth theory. And its the Bible and the account of Creation. How do you have an Earth so old without a sun being in existence yet? I'm not sure how to get around that problem. Somehow I think the sun would need to be here for anything to be here. Space is cold! Try absolute zero.

You are the first to present that challenge, which makes no sense because the Genesis 1 says all of Earth - land, water, and air - was created before the sun, moon, and stars.

Except that every day has 24 hours. That's what we refer to as a "day." You're caught up in this vision-dream thing. I'm not. To me Genesis is a chronological order of events. You think God created things at night? Does anyone think that? Why would night time be chosen to get things done?

The Bible is very clear: God did not rest until the seventh day. What could He have been doing at night?

The only thing I can think of is destroying life. Scientists worldwide have proven beyond doubts millions of species existed before the sixth day, when God made humans.

Paleontologists have proven the order of life creations is correct: plants before all animals, fish and aquatic beasts before reptiles, then crawling invertebrates on land,;then the birds, then the wild animals and livestock on land - all after the sun, moon, and stars were made.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So what do the 6 days of Creation in Genesis mean to you? Remember, each day had an evening and morning.

Not asked of me, but I personally subscribe to the Framework Hypothesis. Framework interpretation (Genesis) - Wikipedia

How can there be a literal evening and morning prior to the creation of the sun, moon, and stars? The definition of evening and morning requires (for the earth-bound observer) the setting and rising of the sun. Without a sun, there can be neither evening nor morning.

And this isn't some modernistic "attack" against Scripture, this has been noted and known since antiquity. Jewish and Christian thinkers, theologians, and exegetes have, for thousands of years, looked at such things in Scripture and have concluded that if a woodenly literal interpretation doesn't make sense of the text, there must be something bigger or deeper being said.

"For who that has understanding will suppose that the first, and second, and third day, and the evening and the morning, existed without a sun, and moon, and stars? And that the first day was, as it were, also without a sky?" - Origen of Alexandria, First Principles IV.6

"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation." - St. Augustine of Hippo, On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis, 19

Christians have always been of diverse opinions on how to read these early chapters in Genesis. Young Earth Creationism is merely one way (and a rather modern way) that some Christians choose to read the text. It's not the default Christian position, it's not a more orthodox position, it's just one opinion among many.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Job 33:6]

I don't see any evidence of this in the Bible as all animals seemed to be brought on board but maybe I'm missing something. What do you think? Of course eggs could have been brought on board so the size of them isn't so much a consideration. They may have taken long periods of time to grow as well. Man lived over 900 years back then so maybe animals lived much longer too. It does follow after all though no one seems to talk about this. First born children often appeared much farther along in their lives than today so maybe everyone grew much slower. Can you imagine how much wiser you'd be if it took 9x longer to grow up??? 9x the life experience? Maybe this explains why the people around the tower of Babel area were so advanced. They did seem to do remarkable things with no history or past experience to draw from. Only a long lifespan would give them huge advantages over us today.

Dinosaurs died due to an asteroid impact producing the Yucatan crater and k-t boundary some 65 million years before Noah ever existed.

 

[Job 33:6]

Dinosaurs on the left, birds on the right. They're a lot more similar than many are aware.

 

[Job 33:6]

And where were humans when this happened? Are you an old Earth believer?

People weren't around yet, it was some 65 million years before God created man.

 

[Job 33:6]

You are the first to present that challenge, which makes no sense because the Genesis 1 says all of Earth - land, water, and air - was created before the sun, moon, and stars.


The Bible is very clear: God did not rest until the seventh day. What could He have been doing at night?

The only thing I can think of is destroying life. Scientists worldwide have proven beyond doubts millions of species existed before the sixth day, when God made humans.

Paleontologists have proven the order of life creations is correct: plants before all animals, fish and aquatic beasts before reptiles, then crawling invertebrates on land,;then the birds, then the wild animals and livestock on land - all after the sun, moon, and stars were made.

"And the evening and the morning were the first day." To me that means it concludes the first day. Nobody would consider one day to go from the evening and end at the morning. That makes no sense.
When I read the Bible it makes sense and I take it at face value unless its obviously using illustrative language. God is a clear communicator and doesn't write in code. That wouldn't make any sense and just confuse us.

The fact that "the evening and the morning" is repeated after every single day is God pounding it into our stubborn stiff necked minds that these are real days otherwise it wouldn't be repeated 6 times! 6 times! That's God saying "Look at this and take note!"

Otherwise how would someone explain why something that repeats 6 times in close succession means something completely different from what it appears? What could possibly be the purpose of writing like that?

As many would say, in today's time we are used to going to school, sitting down with a textbook and recovering direct simple statements of information. We then take an exam, get a grade and go home.

But in ancient times, this isnt really how cultures transferred information. Genesis wasn't written to be a text book. It's more of a proto-historic "narrative" as it's described in more friendly terms. And so we have to consider what the authors were like when reading their material.

 

[SkyWriting]

That's not how it reads in the Bible. I go by the Bible. Better authenticity than any human.

The Bible was written by more than 35 human authors.

 

[GodLovesCats]

As many would say, in today's time we are used to going to school, sitting down with a textbook and recovering direct simple statements of information. We then take an exam, get a grade and go home.

But in ancient times, this isn't really how cultures transferred information. Genesis wasn't written to be a text book. It's more of a proto-historic "narrative" as it's described in more friendly terms. And so we have to consider what the authors were like when reading their material.

I have said multiple times in this section, "The Bible is not a science book," to emphasize the obvious fact Genesis 1 only tells the order things were created, not the entirety of natural history.

I use the word "obvious" here because if the universe had actually been created in six 24-hour days there would be no fossils and sedimentary rocks that are known to be hundreds of millions of years old. I am sure if Genesis was written to be a science book, it would include verses about the five mass extinctions - all of which were definitively proven to have happened long before the Garden of Eden was created.

 

[RDKirk]

Except that every day has 24 hours. That's what we refer to as a "day". You're caught up in this vision-dream thing. I'm not. To me Genesis is a chronological order of events. You think God created things at night? Does anyone think that? Why would nighttime be chosen to get things done?

"Evening and morning" is not 24 hours. "Evening to evening" would be 24 hours, or sunrise to sunrise would be 24 hours.

"Evening and morning" is a very peculiar and particular phrasing that is not seen anywhere else, not anywhere else in the bible or in extra-biblical sources. So, it's presumption to assert it means the same thing as the other ways a 24-hour day is referenced. It's expressed differently because it means something different.

My theory of what happened:

I believe there was a man who was given vision-dreams over the course of six nights. We see in scripture that vision-dreams are a common way that God presents significant blocks of knowledge to people, both believers and unbelievers. And we see that very frequently, these vision-dreams are only scantly "narrated" by God, if narrated at all.

This is something that occurred to me a long time ago, back in the early 60s, in part having seen several nature films that featured time-lapse photography. If you've ever seen time-lapse photography of growing plants or other natural phenomena, changes seem to burst forth suddenly. For instance, a plant bursts suddenly from dry, lifeless dirt.

Most importantly, the person having the vision-dream does not have any kind of "Godlike" omniscient viewpoint. He sees what he's shown from a normal human viewpoint and with normal human understanding. He can't fly, he doesn't have microscopic vision or telescopic vision.

I think in this case, each dream encompassed a segment of Creation, but the real-time of those segments was not equal. Yet, each segment of Creation was contained in the vision-dream for that single night, six nights in a row.

So, if the writer of Genesis had been shown a billion years compressed like time-lapse photography into the vision of a single night, the changes would appear suddenly, almost instantaneously. And there would a lot of things happening that he would not perceive at all until they became visible from an earth-surface viewpoint through normal human vision.

So, then, on the first night of his visions, he would see nothing at all for some period, then suddenly only light. Most likely, that would be the sun reaching the temperature of casting visible light, but it would be filtered through thick, primordial clouds enveloping the earth. The sun and moon already exist, but they would not be visible as discrete disks of light through the heavy cloud cover. The cloud cover would be like a dense fog all the way to the surface of the earth, so the ground itself would not even be visible.

In the vision of the second night, the cloud cover lifts enough that the ground is distinguishable from the sky, like a dense, high fog.

In the vision of the third night, from the position of the dreamer, ground has risen, or water has begun flowing, and a separation of dry land and water is visible. Plant life has also developed to the point that it's visible to the naked eye.

In the vision of the fourth night, the cloud cover has cleared enough so that the sun and moon present discrete disks.

In the vision of the fifth night, animals have become visible to the naked eye. Remember, that with billions of years lapsed into the dream of a single night, these things will appear suddenly to the dreamer.

Then in the vision of the sixth night, the dreamer will see what he can recognize as man suddenly appear. There would be no dream on the seventh night...the story of God's initial creation ends at that point, and the spoken histories of specific individuals begin.

 

[Semper-Fi]

In no place is there an idea of "evening and morning" being
a 24-hour day; that idea is what makes no sense.

Jesus did say there was 12 hours in the daylight portion, plus darkness.

9Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day?
If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because
he seeth the light of this world. 10 But if a man walk in
the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.
-

"Evening [night time hours]and morning [daylight hours]"

Chaos to order

 

[Semper-Fi]

Adam was given dominion over the animals, no way
could he survive being with t-rex and such.

If dinos was on the ark, we would still see them today.

 

[Semper-Fi]

A day is like a thousand years. 2 Peter 3:8
What does this mean to you?

The only place I can find it fits is 6 days plus one, pictures 6 thousand years
allotted man going his own way, plus one thousand years in mill. rest.

"which are a shadow of things to come"

 

[Semper-Fi]

15The voice spoke to him a second time,
“Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

Acts 10:28 (KJV)
And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man
that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation;

but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

 

[Yowan]

I think Dinosaurs may have been present on the Ark and gradually disappeared later due to some climate changes.
The Behemoth could have been a Dinosaur, maybe a Triceratops or something like that.
The dragons we find in fairy tales were probably the last Dinosaurs. Idem Chinese Dragons, perhaps. Later, they disappeared from our world but maybe the Loch Ness Monster was a family of Dinosaurs.
I do not automatically trust all what the scientific community tells us : they contradict themselves too frequently. Paleontology = 90% speculations.

 

[Job 33:6]

I think Dinosaurs may have been present on the Ark and gradually disappeared later due to some climate changes.
The Behemoth could have been a Dinosaur, maybe a Triceratops or something like that.
The dragons we find in fairy tales were probably the last Dinosaurs. Idem Chinese Dragons, perhaps. Later, they disappeared from our world but maybe the Loch Ness Monster was a family of Dinosaurs.
I do not automatically trust all what the scientific community tells us : they contradict themselves too frequently. Paleontology = 90% speculations.

But of course, the obvious issue with this is that no dinosaur fossils are found on pleistocene rock.

 

[Yowan]

But of course, the obvious issue with this is that no dinosaur fossils are found on pleistocene rock.

Yes but who can know how exact our dating methods are going so far back in time? There will never be a definitive proof.
If you examine the field of forensics, scientists find it difficult to clearly establish when someone a recently deceased person really died. There are almost always expertises and counter- expertises especially when homicide is suspected. And I should trust palaeontology and geology? Approximations, temporary conclusions and a lot of speculations.

 

[coffee4u]

I don't see any evidence of this in the Bible as all animals seemed to be brought on board but maybe I'm missing something. What do you think? Of course eggs could have been brought on board so the size of them isn't so much a consideration. They may have taken long periods of time to grow as well. Man lived over 900 years back then so maybe animals lived much longer too. It does follow after all though no one seems to talk about this. First born children often appeared much farther along in their lives than today so maybe everyone grew much slower. Can you imagine how much wiser you'd be if it took 9x longer to grow up??? 9x the life experience? Maybe this explains why the people around the tower of Babel area were so advanced. They did seem to do remarkable things with no history or past experience to draw from. Only a long lifespan would give them huge advantages over us today.

I believe all the land doweling dinosaurs went onto the ark. Small young ones. Not all dinosaurs are large or meat eaters. Growing large meant also being old and having had that time to grow to those proportions. Older dinosaurs would have been of no use to repopulate. Some who have been labeled as meat eating hunters may or may not have been. Sharp teeth are no guarantee of a carnivore or of a hunter. Fruit bats have exceedingly sharp teeth and eat only fruit. Others with sharp teeth may have been scavengers. Society makes dinosaurs to be this larger then life thing like a Jurassic park movie, when they were animals no different to any other. The smallest was said to be the size of a chicken.

Before the flood the earth was a green house surrounded in water and the land was watered from below. Protected man lived long and certain animals including mega flora such as a duck as large as a horse and some dinosaurs grew very large due to being able to grow their entire lives. Most animals don't have that ability.

The flood brought that protection down and ash from the volcanoes erupting caused an ice age. Not many ice ages, just that one. God then allowed man to eat meat and changed the animals to now be afraid of mankind. God knew they would need more than plants in such an environment and I am sure eggs laid by dinosaurs would have been near the top of the list. Even so they did not go completely extinct since God describes both a land and a sea dwelling dinosaur to Job and dragon tales abound through the world. No doubt it was a slow dwindle over many years as man fearful of the meat eaters would have hunted them down. Again eggs or young ones would have been the targets. Even a newly hatched crocodile is no worries for a man so they would not have been any different. And as for those myths such as the fearsome hunter T-Rex, no hunter is built like that with a head that large and top heavy. One trip and it would smash its scull with no proper arms to stop it. Far morel likely a scavenger.

Man was always as bright if not brighter then he is now. You only have to look at Ancient Egypt. Much information would have been lost though at the flood and then at the Tower of Babel since groups could no longer understand each other. Perhaps the ancient Egyptians had those with certain knowledge that other groups may have lacked. This would have affected them going forward from the Tower.

 

[coffee4u]

You never saw any evidence of this in the Bible because it is obviously impossible. Dinosaurs had died out hundreds of millions of years before the first primates came into existence. So there is no way humans in any part of the world could have seen dinosaurs, much less their eggs.

"All animals" means every animal species that existed at the time. Dinosaurs were not among them.

Matthew 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes but who can know how exact our dating methods are going so far back in time? There will never be a definitive proof.
If you examine the field of forensics, scientists find it difficult to clearly establish when someone a recently deceased person really died. There are almost always expertises and counter- expertises especially when homicide is suspected. And I should trust palaeontology and geology? Approximations, temporary conclusions and a lot of speculations.

It's not a matter of radiometric dating, it's a matter of superposition and relative dating. There's a very important difference to understand here.

Just as I can tell you that the coffee mug on my stack of papers post-dated the presence of papers on my desk, I can also, just the same way, comfortably conclude that the layers that do not have dinosaur bones in them, post-dated the lower lying layers that do have dinosaurs in them. And radiometric dating isn't needed to understand this basic form of "lower layers are older" kind of logic.

And as a geologist, I have no trouble at all trusting my own judgements, it's what I do for a living. I could see it being challenging for people to trust bridge engineers. Sometimes crossing bridges can be scary and may seem dangerous at times. Sometimes bridges even collapse. So I understand your concerns if you are not a geologist. For me however, I would say that being in the driver's seat makes it easier to speak with confidence on these topics.

And so, when someone says, maybe dinosaurs just went extinct like whooly mammoth after the flood, well I say, the obvious issue is that whooly mammoths are in shallow layers, dinosaurs are in deeper layers, there is no overlapping of the two, and therefore it doesn't seem reasonable to conclude that they died of similar causes of a similar time, but rather I would say it's more reasonable to conclude that they died of different causes at different times.

And you might ask "well how can you be confident in your own work and know that dinosaurs aren't in shallower layers and are only in deeper ones?"

And the answer is, I go out and look rocks myself first hand and I see what's in them, what they're made of, the features they have, what kinds of breaks are in them etc. And anyone can go and look for themselves, you can too, and if you questions about how to look for fossils or questions about rocks, feel free to ask.