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Could cars reproduce?

doubtingmerle

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The question keeps coming up in this forum: What if cars could reproduce? The answer of course, has been stated many times. Cars cannot reproduce and never could, at least not in anything close to their current form. However, the ubiquitous repeats of the question that I see here might justify a more detailed response.

First we need to resolve what we are talking about. Is this "car" made by making and assembling components like is done in a car factory? If so, does it use existing technology or futuristic technology? If not made by assembling parts, then the only conceivable way to make the next "car" is to grow it from a microscopic start. This is, of course, how living things do it. So we might postulate a car that is an animal, a plant, a fungus, a bacterium, or some kind of alien. A "car" that is a plant, fungus or bacteria seems unlikely, and any alien lifeform doesn't really add anything to the issues that apply to animal cars. So I will deal here with three possible kinds of self reproducing vehicles:

1) A machine shop on wheels.
2) A futuristic nanomachine shop on wheels.
3) An animal.
The machine shop on wheels hasn't gotten a lot of attention here. It is, however, a very real component of science fiction and futuristic thinking. Could we fly self reproducing machines to another planet and have them produce more and more copies of themselves until they dominate the planet and transform it into a place fit for human habitation? Then, a million years later, could people travel there to settle in to their new environment, complete with an army of mechanical slaves that maintain everything? Its an interesting thought, but not practical. For one thing making a machine that would mine steel and copper, make integrated circuits, machine an engine block, assemble it all together, while automatically maintaining itself and finding its own energy, is far too complex. Anybody who is familiar with automation understands that it requires human involvement for maintenance and error recovery. But perhaps, if we were smart enough, we could build a whole colony of machines of various types that could work as a team to do all the manufacture and maintenance of themselves. And in addition to all this activity, some of those machines could transport people.

Obviously the first of these machines would be designed. What about the rest? Conceivably we could have the machines endlessly build copies of themselves. If we were really smart, we could program the machines with parameters that could be varied, and we could have computers adjust the parameters based on feedback from existing operations to fine tune the machines. And if we were smarter still, we could make programs that would respond to the environment and invent new parameters and complexities that could be varied. And so conceivably it would be possible for these machines to grow better with time. The original would be designed by humans, but the improvements would be designed by computers as programmed by humans.

All of that is conceivably possible, but so outlandishly difficult and expensive, I predict it will never be done.

That brings us to futuristic technology such as nanotechnology. Perhaps some day we could do this with smaller machines with future capabilities. Again I tend to be pessimistic about this. But regardless, we are dealing with a design by people and/or computers.

For more on self-reproducing mechanical machines see Self-replicating machine - Wikipedia.

Now lets look at the other possibility, the one that has gotten much more attention, that "cars" somehow might grow from a car embryo. Now obviously this cannot be a machine made of non-living matter, as cars currently are made. It would need to start as a single cell that divides to make more cells, that continue to divide to build the body. The engine block could not be a solid machined piece of metal, but would need to be composed of many cells that would grow the engine bigger with time.

As many have pointed out, this would basically be an animal. And there is no reason why an animal could not grow to be more carlike. A camel, for instance could conceivably grow wider and shorter with two humps made more comfortable for sitting, and could conceivably grow to resemble a car.

Would such a camel be designed? Here there has been some confusion about the use of the word "design". I tend to use a broad definition of the word, that animals are indeed "designed", but they are designed by "The Blind Watchmaker" as Dawkins might put it. The blind processes of mutation and selection produce the apparent design we see in animals. If the selection process is directed by intelligent beings, then we have a combination of the blind forces of nature and the intelligent agent making the design.

Although a wide camel might be more carlike, it is not a car. How close could an animal get to a car? I don't know. Obviously a living creature that grew from a single cell would need to be much different. Living creatures need a supply of energy and oxygen throughout the body, and a means of eliminating the waste. That basically means hearts, lungs, livers, blood vessels, kidneys or the equivalent. An animal with all this can hardly be called a car.

To really be car-like, it would need to grow wheels. Could an animal grow wheels? That is actually a topic of common debate. See Rotating locomotion in living systems - Wikipedia . There are tremendous difficulties. For one, wheels would not be practical for almost any creature. More importantly, the wheels really could not be made of living matter. To be made of living matter they would need a supply of blood and a means of getting rid of waste. There would need to be some way of getting nerves out there. How would you do this with a continuously spinning wheel? Now it is possible an animal could make dead wheels out of keratin, but such wheels would be an extreme problem as there would be no way to repair anything that breaks. Also I don't think a spinning wheel would receive the nutrients it needs to grow in the first place.

And there would need to be some way of attaching muscles to the moving axle. How would you do that?

For all of these reasons, wheels on a macroscopic scale are probably impossible for nature to solve.

And certainly such a "car" would not have computer chips, a transmission, or a radio. Such things are based on components that could not grow from a animal embryo.

So the bottom line is that a designed machine shop on wheels could in theory make other machine shops on wheels, and an evolved animal could evolve descendants that superficially resemble cars, but cars as we know them could not reproduce.

Animals reproduce because they grow from a single cell that makes other cells that divide out responsibilities as programmed by DNA. As such, animals can do things that non-living machines cannot do. Namely, they can produce fertilized eggs; these can grow into new adults; and, when the DNA varies, the offspring can be different and sometimes better adapted.

Animals can evolve. Cars cannot.





 
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Speedwell

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Although a wide camel might be more carlike, it is not a car. How close could an animal get to a car? I don't know. Obviously a living creature that grew from a single cell would need to be much different. Living creatures need a supply of energy and oxygen throughout the body, and a means of eliminating the waste. That basically means hearts, lungs, livers, blood vessels, kidneys or the equivalent. An animal with all this can hardly be called a car.

To really be car-like, it would need to grow wheels. Could an animal grow wheels? That is actually a topic of common debate. See Rotating locomotion in living systems - Wikipedia . There are tremendous difficulties. For one, wheels would not be practical for almost any creature. More importantly, the wheels really could not be made of living matter. To be made of living matter they would need a supply of blood and a means of getting rid of waste. There would need to be some way of getting nerves out there. How would you do this with a continuously spinning wheel? Now it is possible an animal could make dead wheels out of keratin, but such wheels would be an extreme problem as there would be no way to repair anything that breaks. Also I don't think a spinning wheel would receive the nutrients it needs to grow in the first place.
What about a symbiotic relationship between "chassis" creatures and "wheel" creatures?

 
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Kenny'sID

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Can someone please cut to the chase for me?

One thing I've know to be true is it takes a lot of explanation to make people believe something outrageous/unreal, just not sure if that is what we are dealing with here or not...not just yet.

So for that reason, I just don't want to take the time to read something that in the end may mean nothing. However if the summed up point for all that sounds interesting enough, it may be worth taking a closer look.

What are you getting at?
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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What about a symbiotic relationship between "chassis" creatures and "wheel" creatures?

Aha! I never thought of that.

Yes, some animals do roll up in a ball and use muscular movement to propel themselves, so it might be possible for them to somehow attach to a socket in a chassis creature and start rolling. I can't imagine natural forces ever guiding such a union, but if some people were desperate enough to artificially select both for a million years, they could possibly do it.
 
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xianghua

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Animals can evolve. Cars cannot.

first : you didnt show yet that animal can evolve into a different animal.

second: cars can evolve as we can see in this image:

ferrari-f40-2017-30-years-news-580x362.jpg


and after a period of time we will get this:

ferrari-f-40-03.jpg


so what do you know? cars can evolve after all. now imagine what will happen in millions of years...


(images from 30th anniversary of the F40 - Ferrari.com

and Ferrari f 40 pictures. Photo 3.)
 
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Speedwell

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first : you didnt show yet that animal can evolve into a different animal.

second: cars can evolve as we can see in this image:

ferrari-f40-2017-30-years-news-580x362.jpg


and after a period of time we will get this:

ferrari-f-40-03.jpg


so what do you know? cars can evolve after all. now imagine what will happen in millions of years...


(images from 30th anniversary of the F40 - Ferrari.com

and Ferrari f 40 pictures. Photo 3.)
If that change did not take place by random variation and natural selection then it has nothing to do with biological evolution and is useless as an example.
 
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zelosravioli

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Choosing, as in natural selection, does not design anything. When you pick out better products from a store self - your picking it does not create the better product.

It is an grand assumption that nature/biological forms continue to produce/evolve/create better forms to choose/select from.

It is an grand assumption that a few one off variations (most all of which are never 'improvements') proves there are always positive improvements coming forth is fiction.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Read the last three paragraphs of the OP.

I need a simple explanation directly from you. I just need to know your point...is the post supposed to prove, or even indicate something?

Should be a pretty simple request to comply too.
 
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Speedwell

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Choosing, as in natural selection, does not design anything. When you pick out better products from a store self - your picking it does not create the better product.
It does if the producers of the competing products are paying attention.

It is an grand assumption that nature/biological forms continue to produce/evolve/create better forms to choose/select from.
They don't. They continually create a variety of forms. Natural selection determines which is "better."

It is an grand assumption that a few one off variations (most all of which are never 'improvements') proves there are always positive improvements coming forth is fiction.
Each new generation of a species presents a range of variant phenotypes to the environment for selection. I don't know where you get the idea that it is jst "a few, one-off variations."
 
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zelosravioli

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"Each new generation of a species presents a range of variant phenotypes to the environment for selection"

What you are seeing is adaptation - built in adaptation.
Adaptation is no argument 'against' design or a designer, as improvements and self corrections are 'built into' machinery now (by design), this is just evidence of a great 'design' (not necessarily or likely - chance). A good design has self correction built in, and that is what our biology has - self repair, correction and adaptation 'built in' to the design. Adaptability and adjustment is what designers are now building and advancing in the mechanical/robotic world (as the OP alludes to; self replicating, fixing)

As technology advances artificial intelligence, robotic automation is becoming closer and closer to what we know as biological forms. This is demonstrating that humans/creatures are just 'biological machines' operated by pulleys, switches, motors and electricity (with a conscience, spirit or otherwise). To say that there is no similarity between automation (I.E. automobiles, machines..) and biological forms is more and more ridiculous.

The closer we get to creating robotic machines, the closer we are to seeing how incredibly complex and difficult this task of design is. This kind of technology could only come from purposeful design and from a thinking and conscious mind.

Note that most, if not all cars now have computer controls that adjust everything from air, fuel, pressure, power, according to speed, temperature, economy..etc many technologies are self fixing adjusting, and soon, like the OP indicates self producing, as in self 3d printing/replicating. This all isn't being invented and designed without minds being involved.
 
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Speedwell

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"Each new generation of a species presents a range of variant phenotypes to the environment for selection"

What you are seeing is adaptation - built in adaptation.
Quite correct. This built-in adaptation is called "evolution by random variation and natural selection." It is responsible for the diversity of adapted life we see on this planet. You are right to consider human technological advances as a parallel. Industrial designers and manufacturers are beginning to employ stochastic processes based on evolution's random variation and selection algorithm to create novel products.
 
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doubtingmerle

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I need a simple explanation directly from you. I just need to know your point...is the post supposed to prove, or even indicate something?

Should be a pretty simple request to comply too.
Pretend I cut and pasted the last three paragraphs and posted them here.
 
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doubtingmerle

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second: cars can evolve as we can see in this image:

ferrari-f40-2017-30-years-news-580x362.jpg


and after a period of time we will get this:

ferrari-f-40-03.jpg


so what do you know? cars can evolve after all. now imagine what will happen in millions of years...


(images from 30th anniversary of the F40 - Ferrari.com

and Ferrari f 40 pictures. Photo 3.)
A car could be covered in dust after a million years.

An elephant could turn into dust in a million years.

The difference is that the elephant has babies with mutations, each slightly different from its parents. And so the descendents will be different from the starting elephants.
 
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Kenny'sID

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A car could be covered in dust after a million years.

A car could run off dust in less time than that, with the help of Mr Fusion that is. But then you'd need the 1.2 Gigawatts of power, and that means plutonium and dealing with Libyan Nationalists, terrorists, and all that, so meh, maybe not so cool after all.

Covered in dust? yeah...a lot safer, and much less trouble.
 
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Volante Nocturno

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The question keeps coming up in this forum: What if cars could reproduce? The answer of course, has been stated many times. Cars cannot reproduce and never could, at least not in anything close to their current form. However, the ubiquitous repeats of the question that I see here might justify a more detailed response.

First we need to resolve what we are talking about. Is this "car" made by making and assembling components like is done in a car factory? If so, does it use existing technology or futuristic technology? If not made by assembling parts, then the only conceivable way to make the next "car" is to grow it from a microscopic start. This is, of course, how living things do it. So we might postulate a car that is an animal, a plant, a fungus, a bacterium, or some kind of alien. A "car" that is a plant, fungus or bacteria seems unlikely, and any alien lifeform doesn't really add anything to the issues that apply to animal cars. So I will deal here with three possible kinds of self reproducing vehicles:

1) A machine shop on wheels.
2) A futuristic nanomachine shop on wheels.
3) An animal.
The machine shop on wheels hasn't gotten a lot of attention here. It is, however, a very real component of science fiction and futuristic thinking. Could we fly self reproducing machines to another planet and have them produce more and more copies of themselves until they dominate the planet and transform it into a place fit for human habitation? Then, a million years later, could people travel there to settle in to their new environment, complete with an army of mechanical slaves that maintain everything? Its an interesting thought, but not practical. For one thing making a machine that would mine steel and copper, make integrated circuits, machine an engine block, assemble it all together, while automatically maintaining itself and finding its own energy, is far too complex. Anybody who is familiar with automation understands that it requires human involvement for maintenance and error recovery. But perhaps, if we were smart enough, we could build a whole colony of machines of various types that could work as a team to do all the manufacture and maintenance of themselves. And in addition to all this activity, some of those machines could transport people.

Obviously the first of these machines would be designed. What about the rest? Conceivably we could have the machines endlessly build copies of themselves. If we were really smart, we could program the machines with parameters that could be varied, and we could have computers adjust the parameters based on feedback from existing operations to fine tune the machines. And if we were smarter still, we could make programs that would respond to the environment and invent new parameters and complexities that could be varied. And so conceivably it would be possible for these machines to grow better with time. The original would be designed by humans, but the improvements would be designed by computers as programmed by humans.

All of that is conceivably possible, but so outlandishly difficult and expensive, I predict it will never be done.

That brings us to futuristic technology such as nanotechnology. Perhaps some day we could do this with smaller machines with future capabilities. Again I tend to be pessimistic about this. But regardless, we are dealing with a design by people and/or computers.

For more on self-reproducing mechanical machines see Self-replicating machine - Wikipedia.

Now lets look at the other possibility, the one that has gotten much more attention, that "cars" somehow might grow from a car embryo. Now obviously this cannot be a machine made of non-living matter, as cars currently are made. It would need to start as a single cell that divides to make more cells, that continue to divide to build the body. The engine block could not be a solid machined piece of metal, but would need to be composed of many cells that would grow the engine bigger with time.

As many have pointed out, this would basically be an animal. And there is no reason why an animal could not grow to be more carlike. A camel, for instance could conceivably grow wider and shorter with two humps made more comfortable for sitting, and could conceivably grow to resemble a car.

Would such a camel be designed? Here there has been some confusion about the use of the word "design". I tend to use a broad definition of the word, that animals are indeed "designed", but they are designed by "The Blind Watchmaker" as Dawkins might put it. The blind processes of mutation and selection produce the apparent design we see in animals. If the selection process is directed by intelligent beings, then we have a combination of the blind forces of nature and the intelligent agent making the design.

Although a wide camel might be more carlike, it is not a car. How close could an animal get to a car? I don't know. Obviously a living creature that grew from a single cell would need to be much different. Living creatures need a supply of energy and oxygen throughout the body, and a means of eliminating the waste. That basically means hearts, lungs, livers, blood vessels, kidneys or the equivalent. An animal with all this can hardly be called a car.

To really be car-like, it would need to grow wheels. Could an animal grow wheels? That is actually a topic of common debate. See Rotating locomotion in living systems - Wikipedia . There are tremendous difficulties. For one, wheels would not be practical for almost any creature. More importantly, the wheels really could not be made of living matter. To be made of living matter they would need a supply of blood and a means of getting rid of waste. There would need to be some way of getting nerves out there. How would you do this with a continuously spinning wheel? Now it is possible an animal could make dead wheels out of keratin, but such wheels would be an extreme problem as there would be no way to repair anything that breaks. Also I don't think a spinning wheel would receive the nutrients it needs to grow in the first place.

And there would need to be some way of attaching muscles to the moving axle. How would you do that?

For all of these reasons, wheels on a macroscopic scale are probably impossible for nature to solve.

And certainly such a "car" would not have computer chips, a transmission, or a radio. Such things are based on components that could not grow from a animal embryo.

So the bottom line is that a designed machine shop on wheels could in theory make other machine shops on wheels, and an evolved animal could evolve descendants that superficially resemble cars, but cars as we know them could not reproduce.

Animals reproduce because they grow from a single cell that makes other cells that divide out responsibilities as programmed by DNA. As such, animals can do things that non-living machines cannot do. Namely, they can produce fertilized eggs; these can grow into new adults; and, when the DNA varies, the offspring can be different and sometimes better adapted.

Animals can evolve. Cars cannot.






Well....Both my cars are male so.......
 
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