Correcting Christian Leaders.

[SavedByGrace3]

I just do not think these folks realize what they are doing.
Who set them up as judge and jury over everyone else?
Why do they think THEY are correct over everyone else?

Anyone can set themselves up as the master of all teaching and doctrine. That does not mean they are correct. I suspect that most heresy hunters are false teachers. Since they cannot convince people by teaching and reasoning, the only have way to force their teachings on everyone else is by intimidation and threat. Like the scriptures say... mark them that do this. Do not give in to them. Do not give them the forum they desperately need for their ego.
Just pat them on the head and sit them in the rear pew.
If you do not pay them the attention they are crying for... they will either quiet down or go away. But hopefully they will pay attention, grow up, and learn to behave themselves.

 

[enoch son]

I just do not think these folks realize what they are doing.
Who set them up as judge and jury over everyone else?
Why do they think THEY are correct over everyone else?

Anyone can set themselves up as the master of all teaching and doctrine. That does not mean they are correct. I suspect that most heresy hunters are false teachers. Since they cannot convince people by teaching and reasoning, the only have way to force their teachings on everyone else is by intimidation and threat. Like the scriptures say... mark them that do this. Do not give in to them. Do not give them the forum they desperately need for their ego.
Just pat them on the head and sit them in the rear pew.
If you do not pay them the attention they are crying for... they will either quiet down or go away. But hopefully they will pay attention, grow up, and learn to behave themselves.

I agree. All I want to do is say Jesus is Love and loves the creation God has given Him from the littlest to the biggest and you. You would think I've broken all the rules. If that the case breaking the rules is right on. Love you Jesus.

 

[probinson]

Just pat them on the head and sit them in the rear pew.
If you do not pay them the attention they are crying for... they will either quiet down or go away. But hopefully they will pay attention, grow up, and learn to behave themselves.

Oh, how I wish this were true.

But unfortunately, many of these people will not just go away. They will manipulate and connive behind the scenes to get other people on their side. They will not stop until they have accomplished their objective. I've witnessed this many times in our church. The results are devastating.

I do not judge these people's relationship with God, but I do fear for them. One day, I fear that they'll stand before God and say, "I stood up and rebuked that false teacher! I posted on Internet forums warning about how wrong that guy was! I helped split a church where the teacher was wrong and took the people to more sound teaching!", and hear in response, "Depart from me. I never knew you."

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

Oh, how I wish this were true.

But unfortunately, many of these people will not just go away. They will manipulate and connive behind the scenes to get other people on their side. They will not stop until they have accomplished their objective. I've witnessed this many times in our church. The results are devastating.

I do not judge these people's relationship with God, but I do fear for them. One day, I fear that they'll stand before God and say, "I stood up and rebuked that false teacher! I posted on Internet forums warning about how wrong that guy was! I helped split a church where the teacher was wrong and took the people to more sound teaching!", and hear in response, "Depart from me. I never knew you."

Don't you think this is good reason to be...um...introspective isn't the word I am thinking...hm..more worried about our own sins/souls etc..than worrying about pointing out others faults? I mean, seriously, we all have faults, and pet doctrines etc we hang on to. But in the end, that isn't what God is worried about. I believe He is more concerned with..."did we LOVE". For me, that is a bit of a void...for I am not so good at that sometimes. I don't always walk in the Spirit as I should. So, thank you for this Probbie...I for one am taking heed to what you said here. Thank you

 

[probinson]

But in the end, that isn't what God is worried about. I believe He is more concerned with..."did we LOVE". For me, that is a bit of a void...for I am not so good at that sometimes. I don't always walk in the Spirit as I should. So, thank you for this Probbie...I for one am taking heed to what you said here. Thank you

It's been quite a journey for me, these last 6 years. God has been doing an internal work in me for quite some time now, and it has radically changed who I am from the inside out.

It's interesting you mention how we Love others, because I believe that God showed me something in scripture a few years back. Take a look at these 2 familiar scriptures;

John 13:35 (NIV)
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Matthew 7:23 (NIV)
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
​

Do you see it? We are to be known by our Love. Jesus also said that there will be those that He will say that He never knew. I believe that if we don't Love one another, Jesus doesn't know us.

I don't know about you, but that has changed me from the core.

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

It's been quite a journey for me, these last 6 years. God has been doing an internal work in me for quite some time now, and it has radically changed who I am from the inside out.

It's interesting you mention how we Love others, because I believe that God showed me something in scripture a few years back. Take a look at these 2 familiar scriptures;

John 13:35 (NIV)
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Matthew 7:23 (NIV)
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
​

Do you see it? We are to be known by our Love. Jesus also said that there will be those that He will say that He never knew. I believe that if we don't Love one another, Jesus doesn't know us.

I don't know about you, but that has changed me from the core.

exactly. I think this is the journey, or part of it that I am on. I agree with this. If we aren't loving, then we do evil. That is what I see from that comparison too. Sobering thoughts!

 

[Dash Riprock]

When a leader is immoral,that is contrary to sound doctrine,and he must be corrected.Likewise if he is living in avarice he stands on an unscriptral position for leaders,and must be addressed,or defrocked.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I have ancestors who were directly involved in the 1692 Salem witchcraft trails. My 9th GGfather was Sergent John Putnam. That was on the prosecutors side. On the victim side, my GGGgrandfather married into the Goodell line (see Jacob Goodell, Giles Corey, and Martha Corey).
I have been studying the trials for some years now. I see the same spirit that drove that insanity working in heresy hunters. There is manipulation by fear and intimidation. There is guilt based on the accusations of some wide-eyed fanatical "spiritual" children. But most of all there is the lust for control over others. There was cowardice among the true believers who feared these people and did not want to stand up to them lest they fall victim themselves.
In Salem, only after the governor's wife was accused did the authorities step in and put a stop to it.
What is it going to take in Christianity to stop the witch hunts?

Oh, how I wish this were true.

But unfortunately, many of these people will not just go away. They will manipulate and connive behind the scenes to get other people on their side. They will not stop until they have accomplished their objective. I've witnessed this many times in our church. The results are devastating.

I do not judge these people's relationship with God, but I do fear for them. One day, I fear that they'll stand before God and say, "I stood up and rebuked that false teacher! I posted on Internet forums warning about how wrong that guy was! I helped split a church where the teacher was wrong and took the people to more sound teaching!", and hear in response, "Depart from me. I never knew you."

 

[probinson]

I have ancestors who were directly involved in the 1692 Salem witchcraft trails. My 9th GGfather was Sergent John Putnam. That was on the prosecutors side. On the victim side, my GGGgrandfather married into the Goodell line (see Jacob Goodell, Giles Corey, and Martha Corey).
I have been studying the trials for some years now. I see the same spirit that drove that insanity working in heresy hunters. There is manipulation by fear and intimidation. There is guilt based on the accusations of some wide-eyed fanatical "spiritual" children. But most of all there is the lust for control over others. There was cowardice among the true believers who feared these people and did not want to stand up to them lest they fall victim themselves.
In Salem, only after the governor's wife was accused did the authorities step in and put a stop to it.
What is it going to take in Christianity to stop the witch hunts?

I wish I knew.

I recently found this e-book which you might find interesting. It talks about the very things you just said. It is an absolutely excellent book on the topic, and was well worth the $12.95 I spent;

Ebook, The New Pharisaism: How Spiritual Bullies Attack the Church

BTW, in case I haven't said it yet, it's good to see you back posting!

 

[Dash Riprock]

I wish I knew.

I recently found this e-book which you might find interesting. It talks about the very things you just said. It is an absolutely excellent book on the topic, and was well worth the $12.95 I spent;

Ebook, The New Pharisaism: How Spiritual Bullies Attack the Church

BTW, in case I haven't said it yet, it's good to see you back posting!

Actually,the bullies,in the bible,were the corrupt leaders,invading the NT churches.That is why they must be confronted.

Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.


Romans 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive

If we are going to confront,and then only to be labeled pharisees,then Paul was wrong.

 

[probinson]

Actually,the bullies,in the bible,were the corrupt leaders,invading the NT churches.That is why they must be confronted.

Actually, Jesus very often confronted the Pharisees. Publicly.

These scriptures you've posted are referring to Pharisees also. Take this scripture for example;

Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Jesus warned about this also. He said;

Matthew 23:15 (NIV)
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
​

So Pharisees like to have people following after them. They seek "converts", or if you prefer, disciples to follow after them, and in doing so, they make those people "twice as much a son of hell as [they] are".

You'll note that Jesus didn't mince words when it came to the Pharisees.

Romans 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive

This is an interesting verse. Paul is appealing to the Romans to "watch out for those who cause divisions" and also those who "create obstacles" contrary to the doctrine they had been taught.

Salvation is by grace alone. This is an imperative doctrine that can not be compromised. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is creating a works/merit based Gospel "contrary to the doctrine" that the Romans had been taught.

Pharisees were big on keeping the law. That was their major beef with Jesus. Paul is instructing the Romans to not be deceived by those who would lead people back into bondage instead of the grace and freedom found in and through Jesus Christ.

 

[Dash Riprock]

Actually, Jesus very often confronted the Pharisees. Publicly.

These scriptures you've posted are referring to Pharisees also. Take this scripture for example;



Jesus warned about this also. He said;

Matthew 23:15 (NIV)
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
​

So Pharisees like to have people following after them. They seek "converts", or if you prefer, disciples to follow after them, and in doing so, they make those people "twice as much a son of hell as [they] are".

You'll note that Jesus didn't mince words when it came to the Pharisees.



This is an interesting verse. Paul is appealing to the Romans to "watch out for those who cause divisions" and also those who "create obstacles" contrary to the doctrine they had been taught.

Salvation is by grace alone. This is an imperative doctrine that can not be compromised. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is creating a works/merit based Gospel "contrary to the doctrine" that the Romans had been taught.

Pharisees were big on keeping the law. That was their major beef with Jesus. Paul is instructing the Romans to not be deceived by those who would lead people back into bondage instead of the grace and freedom found in and through Jesus Christ.

The point is though,this verse shows that wolves would seek leadership positions,and therefore "leaders" under any title,prophet,teacher etc,should be confronted...correct?

Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

So bullies in any form,should be confronted,and not have the pharisee accusation put on them to thwart an objectional viewpoint.Yes?

 

[Tamara224]

Do you know how to tell the difference between a Heresy Hunter and a Pharisee Hunter?








Wait for it...









One starts with an "h" sound and the other starts with an "f" sound.

 

[Simon Peter]

Do you know how to tell the difference between a Heresy Hunter and a Pharisee Hunter?








Wait for it...









One starts with an "h" sound and the other starts with an "f" sound.

LOL...

 

[lismore]

We need people to speak up, like Martin Luther, when there is something glaringly false being taught in the church.

But just like Martin Luther, the ultimate desintation is outside the false system.

 

[probinson]

So bullies in any form,should be confronted,and not have the pharisee accusation put on them to thwart an objectional viewpoint.Yes?

I would agree with you that Pharisees can appear in any form. Some are pastors. Some are on leadership teams and church boards. Some are sitting in the pew right next to you.

It behooves us to be able to recognize (and confront) Pharisees, no matter where they are. It is also imperative that we keep a watchful eye on ourselves (see Galatians 6) to identify and deal with our own Pharisaical tendencies before doing so.

 

[Dash Riprock]

I would agree with you that Pharisees can appear in any form. Some are pastors. Some are on leadership teams and church boards. Some are sitting in the pew right next to you.

It behooves us to be able to recognize (and confront) Pharisees, no matter where they are. It is also imperative that we keep a watchful eye on ourselves (see Galatians 6) to identify and deal with our own Pharisaical tendencies before doing so.

So in light of Acts 20,leaders need to be confronted,and when people do,they should not be called pharisses.Yes?

 

[Yitzchak]

I just do not think these folks realize what they are doing.
Who set them up as judge and jury over everyone else?
Why do they think THEY are correct over everyone else?

Anyone can set themselves up as the master of all teaching and doctrine. That does not mean they are correct. I suspect that most heresy hunters are false teachers. Since they cannot convince people by teaching and reasoning, the only have way to force their teachings on everyone else is by intimidation and threat. Like the scriptures say... mark them that do this. Do not give in to them. Do not give them the forum they desperately need for their ego.
Just pat them on the head and sit them in the rear pew.
If you do not pay them the attention they are crying for... they will either quiet down or go away. But hopefully they will pay attention, grow up, and learn to behave themselves.

Really good post. I agree . This method of systematically intimidating others by doing all out attacks reminds me of the Presidential Campaigns in the States. Rumors, slinging mudd, demonizing their opponent , no technique is too dirty.

 

[Yitzchak]

So in light of Acts 20,leaders need to be confronted,and when people do,they should not be called pharisses.Yes?

The Pharisees are a part of the jewish religious establishment actually. If they are jewish and part of the official leadership in jewish circles then calling them a Pharisee seems appropriate.

Personally , if I were to select a label to label with it would be Inquisitionist (is that a word?). Because my understanding is that they hunted down heretics and killed them or forced them to convert. It was a dark and vilent period of Church History. You know the Crusades. A lot of people died. But maybe this is a kinder gentler inquisition now ?

My question is are you trying to build a case from the bible to justify another inquisition ? How far does this attack on those who don't conform to your doctrine go ?

 

[Dash Riprock]

Really good post. I agree . This method of systematically intimidating others by doing all out attacks reminds me of the Presidential Campaigns in the States. Rumors, slinging mudd, demonizing their opponent , no technique is too dirty.

The Pharisees are a part of the jewish religious establishment actually. If they are jewish and part of the official leadership in jewish circles then calling them a Pharisee seems appropriate.

Personally , if I were to select a label to label with it would be Inquisitionist (is that a word?). Because my understanding is that they hunted down heretics and killed them or forced them to convert. It was a dark and vilent period of Church History. You know the Crusades. A lot of people died. But maybe this is a kinder gentler inquisition now ?

My question is are you trying to build a case from the bible to justify another inquisition ? How far does this attack on those who don't conform to your doctrine go ?

Your playing one side,as far as "intimidating" goes.

Scripture calls them wolves,that would seek to draw disciples unto themselves.So who are the intimidaters? Wolves,or the flock?

Acts 20:29-30I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Also,look at this verse,who are the manipulaters seeking their own appetites,manipulating the new converts? What great "prophecies" do they say to the young converts,to have them follow themselves?

Rom 16:18For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

Who are the liars,making up things,to gain greed and introduce heresies?

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

Did Peter fear being called a "pharisee",or did he speak up? He said they are condemned.