Correcting Christian Leaders.

[SharonL]

I went to the Toronto Blessing (a Vinyard church) and I have read many threads where this has been critized - I have never understood it -

Each service I went to there was a true Blessing - I never saw any of the crazy things that were reported happening there - what I saw was many Blessings and God used me on many occasions there (or rather used the poems He gave there).

God worked in my life there as never before - I don't think these Blessings could have happened if what they were doing was not right. Just a couple of the Blessings - out of a crowd of about 2,000 God put a light on one woman there that I needed to pray for - we went into individual groups and God gave me a poem just for her - brought her out of depression and showed her how much she meant to God - that poem has gone on to bless thousands.

Another incident - there was a blind girl and the leader had us read what God gave us in a 15 minuet silent time - I read the poem - it spoke directly to this blind girl and she went on to open up a ministry for the blind.

Another - this woman who was in deep depression - the poem spoke to her and opened up her God given ability to write poetry that she had surpressed.

I tell these only to show that God was working mightly in this meeting that I have read was so wrong.

When we come on here and critize ministries, we better know what we are talking about because when we damage a ministry that is reaching millions of people we are hurting people who are searching for God and God will not turn away from these people just because the leader may have something wrong - as long as the basics are there, the Holy Spirit can lead us all into the truth.

 

[probinson]

http://thegreycoats.com/2008/02/the-much-awaited-interview-with-ernie-gruen/

Uh, yeah, I read that, and even posted a link to it.

BTW, do you have this saved somewhere? I only ask because your link is remarkably outdated. If you're going to post sources to verify your information, you should at least verify them first.

However, as I said in my last post, I like to corroborate what I read with verifiable sources, and not from a single group of anonymous people on the Internet.

 

[Simon Peter]

Uh, yeah, I read that, and even posted a link to it.

BTW, do you have this saved somewhere? I only ask because your link is remarkably outdated. If you're going to post sources to verify your information, you should at least verify them first.

However, as I said in my last post, I like to corroborate what I read with verifiable sources, and not from a single group of anonymous people on the Internet.

Hi Pete,

Yes, I have it saved, along with the Ernie Gruen Report .
Glad I do, because - as you pointed out - my source link is no longer good.

I also prefer to have good sources, some are better than others. I seem to recall that this was a radio interview; but I could be mistaken. I will try to find the original source.

BTW, are you suggesting that this interview may have been fabricated by the great 'anti-IHOP' conspiracy

Hey, I believe info on Bickle's website is fabricated, why shoudln't you believe the same of others... just wondering?


peace,
Simon

 

[probinson]

The last few posts illustrate a greater problem; the willingness to believe whatever agrees with you.

"The Grey Coats posted it on their blog, so it must be true!"

If this weren't actually happening before our very eyes, it would be laughable. But unfortunately, it's evident in just about every aspect of our lives. If someone says something that we agree with, we just swallow it. Case in point; Nevermind the fact that The Grey Coats blog is the only place this alleged interview appears. Nevermind the fact that NOTHING appears on Ernie Gruen's own website to substantiate this interview. Nevermind the fact that none of us has a clue of who The Grey Coats are. This is all irrelevant. They agree with what you want to believe, so it must therefore be true.

The opposite is also true. Anytime someone hears something that disagrees with something they agree with, it must be false and is to be rejected outright. Nevermind the fact that there is sourced, corroborated information that says otherwise. This is irrelevant. It challenges what you thought, so it must be false.

Very few people actually take the time to verify anything for themselves any more. It's how email forwards live on for so long. I just received another of these last month; "CBS is going to take 'Touched by an Angel off the air!" Nevermind the fact that 'Touched by an Angel" hasn't been on TV for almost 2 decades. Nevermind the fact that it was never in danger of being taken off the air for the reasons cited to begin with. People see this OUTRAGE and determine it MUST be stopped! This particular hoax has been circulating in some form since 1975 and has caused such an astounding ruckus that the FCC has a webpage dedicated to it;

Religious Broadcast Rumor Denied

I find it amusing how people will often talk on this forum about how "gullible" others are, and then turn around and regurgitate whatever "The Grey Coats" or whatever other trendy "discernment" site feeds them. This is proof enough for the "discerning" folks who had the foresight to Google Ernie Gruen and latch onto the first thing that bolstered their opinion.

As for me, I stand by my statement that I can neither confirm nor deny that Ernie apologized for his report. There simply is not enough verifiable information to say definitively one way or the other. I am, however, willing to change my stance though, provided some verifiable, corroborative information.

 

[probinson]

BTW, are you suggesting that this interview may have been fabricated by the great 'anti-IHOP' conspiracy

May have been fabricated? Sure. Why not?

But I don't know. I'm not accusing them of fabricating the interview, nor am I trying to say Ernie did apologize. I am simply saying that the information on both sides of the issue is dubious at best, and until I have more concrete evidence than a random blog post, I'll remain firmly in the "undecided" camp.

 

[Simon Peter]

This is why we post sources. The sources are what they are. Just because a source is the New York Times, doesn't give it huge credibility, IMHO.

Apparantly, The Grey Coats had an ongoing e-mail dialogue with Ernie. The interview was then conducted by email, posted on their website, and linked to, and sourced by many other websites.

I think the interview and source has credibility. Particularly as I've read other emails from Ernie - from other sources - that have said similar things. Am I prepared to burn at the stake for the reliabilty of the Grey Coats...of course not. And I don't know them personally.

However, I think the interview has enough credibility to be quoted, with it's source. People are free to make their own minds up, or remain undecided...

But it's good to hear the other side of the story.

Can anyone provide documentation or evidence that Ernie did apologise to IHOP for his report?


peace,
Simon

 

[enoch son]

I remember what he Holy spirit said back in those day's. There was a misunderstanding about where to build a new chruch because the one they were at was to small. I can hear it as if it was today. "What is it to you if I build my chruch in the east,west,north or south it's God's chruch." Man never has understand that. From one that was there and hear these things.

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

I went to the Toronto Blessing (a Vinyard church) and I have read many threads where this has been critized - I have never understood it -

Each service I went to there was a true Blessing - I never saw any of the crazy things that were reported happening there - what I saw was many Blessings and God used me on many occasions there (or rather used the poems He gave there).

God worked in my life there as never before - I don't think these Blessings could have happened if what they were doing was not right. Just a couple of the Blessings - out of a crowd of about 2,000 God put a light on one woman there that I needed to pray for - we went into individual groups and God gave me a poem just for her - brought her out of depression and showed her how much she meant to God - that poem has gone on to bless thousands.

Another incident - there was a blind girl and the leader had us read what God gave us in a 15 minuet silent time - I read the poem - it spoke directly to this blind girl and she went on to open up a ministry for the blind.

Another - this woman who was in deep depression - the poem spoke to her and opened up her God given ability to write poetry that she had surpressed.

I tell these only to show that God was working mightly in this meeting that I have read was so wrong.

When we come on here and critize ministries, we better know what we are talking about because when we damage a ministry that is reaching millions of people we are hurting people who are searching for God and God will not turn away from these people just because the leader may have something wrong - as long as the basics are there, the Holy Spirit can lead us all into the truth.

I went several times too! I live near there. In fact, I was there a couple months ago when Bill Johnson was there. Yes, there was a couple acts of the "flesh", but it wasn't taken notice of. When the height of it was going on, alot of the silliness that you STILL hear about was taken care of early on! In fact, none of the noises etc happen. People want to dwell on past learning experiences..

 

[probinson]

This is why we post sources. The sources are what they are. Just because a source is the New York Times, doesn't give it huge credibility, IMHO.

Agreed. Just because something has a linked source does not mean it is credible. This is one reason I seek for multiple sources to corroborate things.

However, I think the interview has enough credibility to be quoted, with it's source. People are free to make their own minds up, or remain undecided...

Absolutely. I'm all for people making up their own minds and verifying things for themselves. So while the interview should be posted, it should also be pointed out that it has not been corroborated with ANY other source. That's a key point for me in ANY claim I read. To believe it is credible, I have to just take The Grey Coat's claims at face value, which is something I almost never do, no matter who makes the claim.

Can anyone provide documentation or evidence that Ernie did apologise to IHOP for his report?

My search this morning turned up very little of real substance, either pro or anti-apology.

 

[JimB]

I went to the Toronto Blessing (a Vinyard church) and I have read many threads where this has been critized - I have never understood it -

*****

The Toronto “Vineyard” has not been a Vineyard church since the mid-90’s.

From reports the separation came after a meeting between John Wimber and the directors in the Vineyard with John Arnott, the pastor of the Toronto church in December 1995. The Vineyard was concerned that what was happening in Toronto was being popularly identified as a “Vineyard” thing, which it wasn’t (it was a Toronto thing), and after the meeting, which discussed some of the reported excesses, the Vineyard chose to separate from identifying with what was happening in Toronto and the church chose to no longer identify itself as a Vineyard. From what I have heard (from those who were actually at the meeting) was that the separation was cordial and respectful.

Here’s a non-partisan Christianity Today report (2 pages) of the meeting CLICK HERE.

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13​

 

[actionsub]

I hope it does correct the problem.

Perhaps so, because at the time of this Bickle/Gruen controversy, Bickle's church was the Kansas City Vineyard Fellowship. John Wimber attempted to step in and mediate between Bickle and Gruen, but was unsuccessful. The Kansas City Vineyard left the fellowship and became IHOP.

 

[Yitzchak]

I just read the Grey Coats blog.... the letters from Ernie sound like Ernie, in the way he writes. Now I wonder whether my pastor was mistaken? I do know they both belonged to the Midwest Ministers Fellowship, and I've seen them both in the meetings, etc, and looking back I'm pretty sure that Brother Ernie was there when MB spoke...... I'll have to ask some questions.

Quote from IHOP wenpage under endorsements...

“Many pastors in the Kansas City area are grateful to God for raising up IHOP–KC in our city. The knowledge that hundreds of intercessors are crying out night and day with fasting for revival in our city strengthens our hearts in the battle. We thank Mike Bickle and the IHOP–KC leaders, and stand with them knowing that their labors are resulting in spiritual blessing and unity in the church in our city.”


—Howard Cordell and leadership team, Midwest Ministers Fellowship
(Network of over 200 pastors and ministries in the Kansas City region)

 

[Yitzchak]

A teacher and author, Bob Sorge has been walking in the crucible of a sustained personal crisis. Through the fire, God has burned into his soul a passionate message of God’s ways and how God walks us through the darkness to the highest heights of grace.

Author of the widely acclaimed book, Exploring Worship, Bob later wrote a trilogy of books that are the product of this intense personal trial – In His Face: A prophetic call to renewed focus, The Fire of Delayed Answers, and its sequel The Fire of God’s Love. He has also written an interpretational commentary on the book of Job, entitled Pain, Perplexity, and Promotion: a prophetic interpretation of the Book of Job. Recent releases are Secrets of The Secret Place, Following The River: A Vision For Corporate Worship, Unrelenting Prayer, and his newest book is entitled, It's Not Business, It's Personal.

Having served as a senior pastor for thirteen years, Bob is now traveling domestically and abroad to bring his message of hope to the body of Christ. Bob and his wife, Marci, live in Kansas City, Missouri with their three children.

Upcoming ministers fellowship from midwest ministers website...Bob Sorge is affiliated with IHOP

 

[Yitzchak]

Apparently these couple hundred pastors don't take Ernie Greun's report as being that important. Since they have endorsed Mike Bickle and IHOP.

 

[JimB]

Here’s an item clipped (with links) from Wikipedia:

Bickle's theology and methods have been challenged by many in the church who assert that he is in error in some of his practices and beliefs.[13] Their criticism, warranted or not, focuses mainly on the basis of his theology, his allegorical interpretation of the Song of Songs,[14] and the moral failings of some of the prophets that he has promoted, including Bob Jones[15][16] and Paul Cain.[17][18]

Criticism has spanned several decades, from contemporary critic Rev. Keith Gibson,[19] director of the Kansas City office of the Apologetics Resource Center to a Kansas City Pastor, Rev. Ernie Gruen[20], who authored a report entitled "Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teaching of the Kansas City Fellowship (Grace Ministries)"[21] in 1990. It was around this time that Bickle and his church affiliated with John Wimber and the Association of Vineyard Churches (AVC)[22] in part to address the issues raised by his critics.[23] Regarding these issues, Bickle attempted to divert responsibility by saying "We were tempted to say that the attacks were all of the devil. In retrospect, we see that God’s hand in all of this - even using the things that came from Satan’s hand as well. Some of the criticisms were valid[24] (especially concerning our pride) others were not."[25]

Bickle's controversial end-times eschatology has aligned him with Latter Rain thinking, and especially the doctrine that emerged from it known as "Joel's Army." Bickle, in December 2008 was quoted as saying "We're not afraid of the great tribulation, the judgment of God, we're releasing it. We're not victims that are fearful and helpless, we're participants. We're agents in God's hands, loosing through prayers of faith supernatural provisions for the saints and heavenly arsenals striking the power bases - the political and military and economic power bases across the world, the Holy Spirit will release Heavenly arsenal and strike and literally and physically destroy them through the prayers of faith of the unified body of Christ."[26]
​

The Kansas City Fellowship has not been affiliated with the Vineyard since the early 90’s.

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13​

 

[Yitzchak]

This is why we post sources. The sources are what they are. Just because a source is the New York Times, doesn't give it huge credibility, IMHO.

Apparantly, The Grey Coats had an ongoing e-mail dialogue with Ernie. The interview was then conducted by email, posted on their website, and linked to, and sourced by many other websites.

I think the interview and source has credibility. Particularly as I've read other emails from Ernie - from other sources - that have said similar things. Am I prepared to burn at the stake for the reliabilty of the Grey Coats...of course not. And I don't know them personally.

However, I think the interview has enough credibility to be quoted, with it's source. People are free to make their own minds up, or remain undecided...

But it's good to hear the other side of the story.

Can anyone provide documentation or evidence that Ernie did apologise to IHOP for his report?


peace,
Simon

Correct me if I am wrong....The grey coats are an anti charasmatic group that condemns dozens if not hundreds of ministries...Is this true ?
And no, I don't know if he ever apologized. the only evidence I have that it might be true that he reconciled is that he was part of the midwest ministers fellowship which endorsed IHOP. One woudl think if he feels IHOP is a false movement that would cause friction.

 

[Yitzchak]

Toronto Airport verifies the fact that they are no longer Vineyard. They say that they have peace between themselves and Vineyard though.

 

[Yitzchak]

Back to the main question though. All these rumors. People saying that Ministries are lying. Is this biblical ?

 

[JimB]

Acting on rumors is always unwise but stating what is documented is another matter. Still, rumors often have merit and at the very least should make one cautious. It’s best to discover the facts yourself by following Matthew 18.15. However, if a person is, as some nationally known ministers are, insulated from people, that is sometimes difficult to do—I have tried on a number of occasions through the years.

I am a minister and, quite naturally, being a public figure, been the victim of unfounded rumors—it comes with the territory. When someone who hears a rumor comes to me and discloses what they heard I am grateful because I can usually go to the source of the rumor and confront that person following Jesus’ advice in that same scripture.

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13​

 

[talitha]

Bob Sorge - who is a great man of God, by the way - check out his books and other teachings - awesome - particularly his book on loyalty - has spoken at IHOP, but I don't know that he's "affiliated" with them?

but anyway, about the question in general..... I think we need to pay attention to spheres of authority...... (see 2 Corinthians 10). I have no authority to call out my pastor or Howard Cordell, the president of MMF, but here in Honduras I do have authority to call out the pastor who is "under" me. I do not think it should be done in public, unless there is large-scale deception or a public sin.

My opinions.

tal