Correcting Christian Leaders.

[Simon Peter]

Apparently these coulpe hundred pastors don't take ernie Greun's report as being that important. Since they have endorsed Mike Bickel and IHOP.

The only endorsement I see in your quote, is that of Howard Cordell, and possibly the "leadership team" whoever they are, because none of them are named...

Trying to claim, the endorsement of 200 pastors, just because Cordell endorses IHOP and sits on the board or leadership team of a fellowship/network of pastors is just a bit of a stretch. Pastors may belong to all sorts of organizations that they don't always agree with. Including their own denominations...

In the Gruen Report, Ernie says this:

You must also know that I have heard from 45 pastors in the Kansas City area. One pastor’s letter could be considered neutral. The other 44 pastors solidly supported my position with Kansas City Fellowship. They said things like this: ​

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]"Someone had to preach this message..." [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]
[/FONT][/FONT]"You were the only one who had the credibility in the city to do it..." ​

"No one can accuse you of being insecure or jealous because your church is a lot larger than Kansas City Fellowship..." ​

"I’m an Assembly of God pastor and so I could not have preached the message. I’m sorry you had to do it but it needed to be done..." ​

---

He does not name them, so they are of limited value, as pointed out before. But assuming you believe Enest Gruen did not make these up, they were solid support for the Report.

Unlike the 200 leaders who just happen to be part of a network whose leader wrote a single letter of support.

And no, I don't know if he ever apologized. the only evidence I have that it might be true that he reconciled is that he was part of the midwest ministers fellowship which endorsed IHOP. One woudl think if he feels IHOP is a false movement that would cause friction.

This makes my above point exactly! Even Ernie Gruen is one of the 200 pastors supposedly supporting IHOP LOL...



peace,
Simon

 

[New_Wineskin]

This subject seems to come up quite often on the forums here. One of the recent ones was Ernie Greun. He wrote a report a couple of hundred pages long specifically against a well known Christian ministry. In his report , he cites people's testimonies that had a falling out with that ministry. They talk about "secret" teachings and accuse the leaders of the ministry of lying.
So I am starting a thread about the more general topic. What is the Biblical way to correct a Christian Ministry. And is this something that is appropriate for every person to do ? If they disagree with a Ministry , to dig up as much dirt as they can , even if it is rumors and half truths taken out of context and publically smear a Ministries reputation. Is this O.K. ?
I see people out there attacking Benny Hinn , Joyce Meyer , Todd Bentley , etc.
Personally I think there is a difference between debating a particular Ministries Public Doctrinal position and attacking a Christian leader personally.





But this is the thread for it. Go ahead and present your case....What is the right way to handle these disagreements ? And where does it cross the line ?

There is no "biblical way" to correct a christian group because the denominational clubs are not real churches in the way that the Church was organized as in the Scriptures .

All Christians referred to in the Scriptures belonged to each other . They would accept the apostles as apostles to all Christians . Nowadays , if you are in one group , you will not recognbize the authority of an apostle ( whatever title they give ) of another group to which you are not affiliated . The same with pastors or elders or whatever title of one group's leader toward yourself . "Biblically" , the shoe doesn't fit in the realm of leaders . So , there is no Scriptural way for them to correct you or your leaders .

In the same sense , you cannot really correct a leader of a group not affiliated with you . You can try but they will not recognize your authority - just as you will not recognize thiers . Again , this deals with groups not affiliated with your own .

Best example today - in the Catholic scandal over the last decade , the vatican has pooh-poohed any and all groups attempting to correct it .

Correcting does no good when no ear is positioned to listen .

 

[enoch son]

New Wine good statement.

 

[lismore]

Sometimes the best way to correct a leader is with the feet. Vote with your feet.

There is no facility for correcting leaders apart from walking away.........

 

[Dash Riprock]

This subject seems to come up quite often on the forums here. One of the recent ones was Ernie Greun. He wrote a report a couple of hundred pages long specifically against a well known Christian ministry. In his report , he cites people's testimonies that had a falling out with that ministry. They talk about "secret" teachings and accuse the leaders of the ministry of lying.
So I am starting a thread about the more general topic. What is the Biblical way to correct a Christian Ministry. And is this something that is appropriate for every person to do ? If they disagree with a Ministry , to dig up as much dirt as they can , even if it is rumors and half truths taken out of context and publically smear a Ministries reputation. Is this O.K. ?
I see people out there attacking Benny Hinn , Joyce Meyer , Todd Bentley , etc.
Personally I think there is a difference between debating a particular Ministries Public Doctrinal position and attacking a Christian leader personally.





But this is the thread for it. Go ahead and present your case....What is the right way to handle these disagreements ? And where does it cross the line ?

Ok,number one,you need to move on past the 'attacking" thing,if you wish to debate,that calls for scriptural integrity.

Paul held himself up to scrutiny.

1 Cor 4;6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

Peter warned of false teachers..

2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

So,do we debate the issue,and talk about it like Peter and Paul did,or do we play the "attacking "card?

 

[JimB]

Toronto Airport verifies the fact that they are no longer Vineyard. They say that they have peace between themselves and Vineyard though.

-

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Seeing the mass disagreement we see on these threads, I would hate to be a leader in some of these people's churches. They all know better than you do, and they all do not mind questioning you, denouncing you, and defaming you based on nothing more than their personal opinion about what the Scriptures say. If I were a leader in said church, I would gladly and happily show them the door.
I doubt they would be welcome in anyone's church. What they need to do is try to be a leader in thier own church, and see what it is like reaping the disunity that they love to sow.

 

[Yitzchak]

Bob Sorge - who is a great man of God, by the way - check out his books and other teachings - awesome - particularly his book on loyalty - has spoken at IHOP, but I don't know that he's "affiliated" with them?

but anyway, about the question in general..... I think we need to pay attention to spheres of authority...... (see 2 Corinthians 10). I have no authority to call out my pastor or Howard Cordell, the president of MMF, but here in Honduras I do have authority to call out the pastor who is "under" me. I do not think it should be done in public, unless there is large-scale deception or a public sin.

My opinions.

tal

From www. oasishouse.net ..The official website for Bob Sorge's ministry.

We are associated with the International House Of Prayer in Kansas City, Missouri (Mike Bickle, Director). For information on IHOP,

Bob sorge was part of IHOP for several years. it is in the introduction to his book " Unrelenting prayer ".

 

[Yitzchak]

From the book titled " Holy Laughter and the Toronto Blessing : an investigative report. By James A. Beverly....Page 132

In 1993 I spent 12 hours in conversation with Mike Bickle while he was in Canada at a conference on prophecy and renewal. Mike made it clear that God had used the critique of Ernie Greun to bring a deeper level of legitimate caution about Prophecy to Kansas City. Later that same year Greun and Bickle jointly signed a declaration of peace between their two churches.

 

[Gnarwhal]

There's a number of Scriptures I find pertinent to circumstances involving a false teacher, and they all kind of spell out the severity of such a situation or perhaps instruct in how to proceed. A few of them are:

James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

2 Peter 2:1-3
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Titus 1:13
This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

1 Timothy 5:20
Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

I also find 1 Timothy 1:19, 20 interesting. Paul's speaking to Timothy and referencing a couple of other teachers whom have "shipwrecked" their faith. According to the Greek, Paul says they've rejected "keeping faith and a good conscience" and they he follows that by declaring he's handing them over to Satan so that they'll be taught not to blaspheme.

I think these days we live in a world where people don't want to rock the boat and give themselves any sort of discomfort and they're neglecting to consider just how dangerous false teaching can be. Some of the Scriptures above state that it's an incredibly serious matter and is worthy of serious action.

I'm not sure if there's a one-size-fits-all solution, because all teachers (true or false) are different. If they're a false teacher, their false doctrine and the size of the crowd that it's reaching may dictate the actions taken.

Often times I think we'd prefer the Matthew 18 approach cause it ideally results in the "least collateral damage". But I believe a false teacher would be prepared for such a confrontation and may have groomed others prior to that to side with him.

I recall when my cousin and her husband learned that their pastor was in sin. Her husband and a brother whom also knew sought to take it before the pastor privately. When they did the pastor flew into a rage and essentially banned them from the church and those whom are still a part of the church were forbidden to speak to them. That's an extreme example, but I believe that depending on the teachers agenda, he or she will go to certain lengths to preserve it. My wife knows someone involved with the pastors sin, and the last we heard, the pastor is still in sin.

But at the end of it all, I think it's most important that we do our best to correct in love.

 

[Faulty]

I'm not sure if there's a one-size-fits-all solution, because all teachers (true or false) are different. If they're a false teacher, their false doctrine and the size of the crowd that it's reaching may dictate the actions taken.

Often times I think we'd prefer the Matthew 18 approach cause it ideally results in the "least collateral damage". But I believe a false teacher would be prepared for such a confrontation and may have groomed others prior to that to side with him.

The little book of 2 John has something very interesting concerning our treatment of false teachers.

"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works." 2 John 1:7-11
​

Not only does John state that there is a potential of losing some or all or our eternal reward for following their teachings, but also, even if you show these people hospitality or greet them, that you partake of their evilness.

If people really understood these implications, I'd imagine there would be far less tolerance for all the garbage being spewed from the pulpits of today. People don't 'watch' as the scripture commands, they just think "Oh, my liver shivered. It must be from God".

 

[probinson]

Not only does John state that there is a potential of losing some or all or our eternal reward for following their teachings, but also, even if you show these people hospitality or greet them, that you partake of their evilness.

If people really understood these implications, I'd imagine there would be far less tolerance for all the garbage being spewed from the pulpits of today. People don't 'watch' as the scripture commands, they just think "Oh, my liver shivered. It must be from God".

Do you even read the scriptures you post? I'm curious, because this is what that scripture says. I'll copy and paste exactly what you posted and add emphasis;

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
​

This isn't talking about your personal opinion of the "garbage being spewed from the pulpits". It's talking, very specifically, about people who "do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh".

So I'm curious, which teacher is it that you are referring to that does not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh?

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

*shakes head*....its amazing to me the ones that think they have it all together and know it all...wow.

 

[Faulty]

Do you even read the scriptures you post? I'm curious, because this is what that scripture says. I'll copy and paste exactly what you posted and add emphasis;

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
​

This isn't talking about your personal opinion of the "garbage being spewed from the pulpits". It's talking, very specifically, about people who "do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh".

So I'm curious, which teacher is it that you are referring to that does not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh?

You're one to talk.

His warning is applicable to any false teacher. Read the rest of the verse and quit cherry-picking what you see.

"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist."

There are MANY deceivers. SUCH A ONE are those whe do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh.

He uses these particular deceivers as an example.

 

[Simon Peter]

Seeing the mass disagreement we see on these threads, I would hate to be a leader in some of these people's churches. They all know better than you do, and they all do not mind questioning you, denouncing you, and defaming you based on nothing more than their personal opinion about what the Scriptures say. If I were a leader in said church, I would gladly and happily show them the door.
I doubt they would be welcome in anyone's church. What they need to do is try to be a leader in thier own church, and see what it is like reaping the disunity that they love to sow.

And yet your personal opinion, denouncing people that "all know better than you do...", doesn't reap disunity?

Why do you get a 'free pass' to denounce people?


peace,
Simon

 

[Faulty]

*shakes head*....its amazing to me the ones that think they have it all together and know it all...wow.

I assume that was directed at me, and if you had any real knowledge about this, you'd probably be ashamed for such a remark.

Who are you to make such a personal judgment out of ignorance? I suggest a quick review of Romans 2:1-5.

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

I assume that was directed at me, and if you had any real knowledge about this, you'd probably be ashamed for such a remark.

Who are you to make such a personal judgment out of ignorance? I suggest a quick review of Romans 2:1-5.

was your name in there? A bit quick to jump to I was accusing you personally. NO, it was a GENERAL statement. BUT, if you felt convicted, maybe you should think about it. I didn't judge YOU personally at all. An observation bro. NOW...relax. You shouldn't ASSUME....just sayin'...

 

[enoch son]

The little book of 2 John has something very interesting concerning our treatment of false teachers.

"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works." 2 John 1:7-11
​

Not only does John state that there is a potential of losing some or all or our eternal reward for following their teachings, but also, even if you show these people hospitality or greet them, that you partake of their evilness.

If people really understood these implications, I'd imagine there would be far less tolerance for all the garbage being spewed from the pulpits of today. People don't 'watch' as the scripture commands, they just think "Oh, my liver shivered. It must be from God".

I beleive Pauls talking about jewish proselytes who preach the law as a way of salvation.

 

[probinson]

You're one to talk.

His warning is applicable to any false teacher. Read the rest of the verse and quit cherry-picking what you see.

Now THAT is amusing, particularly as you do the exact same thing here, but choose only to emphasize precisely what I didn't.

"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist."

There are MANY deceivers. SUCH A ONE are those whe do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh.

He uses these particular deceivers as an example.

No, he doesn't. You can't just rearrange the words of scripture to change its meaning to make it fit your agenda.

What the scripture actually says;

2 John 1:7 (NASB)
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
​

What you're trying to make it say;

2 John 1:7 (FaultyTranslation)
"For many deceivers have gone out into the world. Such a one [are] those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. [They are] the deceiver and the antichrist."
​

He is describing the deceivers as those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh, and saying that a person who fits this description is the deceiver and the antichrist. Here are some other translations for you that say the same thing.

2 John 1:7 (KJV)
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

2 John 1:7 (NIV)
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

2 John 1:7 (AMP)
For many imposters (seducers, deceivers, and false leaders) have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge (confess, admit) the coming of Jesus Christ (the Messiah) in bodily form. Such a one is the imposter (the seducer, the deceiver, the false leader, the antagonist of Christ) and the antichrist.

2 John 1:7 (NLT)
I say this because many deceivers have gone out into the world. They deny that Jesus Christ came in a real body. Such a person is a deceiver and an antichrist.
​

So it's pretty clear that "those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh" is a specific descriptor of the deceivers. There are indeed many of them, and such a one who does not confess Jesus as coming in the flesh is the deceiver and the antichrist.

As much as you would like it to say otherwise, that scripture is talking very specifically about people who deny that Jesus came in the flesh.

 

[enoch son]

Like let go put a note in the wall and hope God hear us?