Corona-virus, a new ethical dilemma, to lock-down or not to lock-down

[JohnDB]

Barbers and hair salons are luxuries. Our ancestors survived tens of thousands of years without them.

Oh I wasn't whining about needing one...

I was just saying that at this point a haircut isn't going to be small.

 

[Richard T]

People seem to forget that all wealth comes from God. A righteous nation is blessed and an unrighteous one is going to the curb. America and many other Christian nations are turning, if you want prosperity again, then repent. If you are doing your part, you will be fine, God will supply your needs. Israel used to shut down every 7 years. Funny how we are so modern, have all these great conveniences yet are often so poor in spirit. It is good for us to learn some patience. If you are not content in all circumstances then you need more of God. I admit I am not perfect and sometimes do get frustrated but I am getting used to the new normal. My only fear is that COVID is not going to be enough to turn people back to God.
Philippians 4:11-13 (KJV)
11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. 12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

 

[Strathos]

I'm going to take exception to your "trivial" comment.

I was needing a regularly scheduled haircut when I went into quarantine...I haven't left that status.

When I finally get a haircut it's not going to be anyway near something trivial.

I got a haircut at home from a family member. It turned out better than I thought it would.

 

[stevevw]

Let it spread around and allow people to develop immunity. That is what we do with every flu virus strain, it then gets watered down and is less severe. A vaccine will only be less than 50% effective- just like the seasonal flu.

We can't just shut down and wait, then we will have real problems when everyone loses their jobs-it will be global chaos. Of course, this is what is coming according to the Book of Revelation.

The sick and elderly is always at risk, this is how it's always been. They should wear masks, not young healthy people. Don't let the fear of death bind you. Turn to Jesus and the fear of death will have no sway over you!

So what if your a young person or any person for that matter and you are not wearing a mask and get the virus and then contaminate an elderly person (perhaps your own grandmother) and they die. Are you then culpable for their death? Would you feel guilty? Could that death have been avoided? Wouldnt that elderly person have a right to life and still offer happiness and value to other people in their life. They may have been a helper of others themselves and made a big difference in the lives of others. That may lead to other devastating effects.

 

[stevevw]

Are job losses worse than deaths? Are business closures worse than deaths?

Serious question.

Yes, they are serious questions. It could be that job loses and business closures also lead to serious problems like mental illness, domestic violence through financial stress or a person losing identity especially males and they lose all sense of who they are and then lash out. As a result of these issues, they can also cause deaths from a lack of caring about what happens and losing control to direct suicide.

For example, studies show that there is a link between males losing their job and suicide. There was a spike in suicide rates during the great depression. During the GFC suicide rose by 6.9% over Europe. Even if we factor out other reasons besides the loss of work or business there are around 230 millioned employed people and even at 1%, that's 2,300,000 deaths to suicide. That is not counting the possible sickness and death from hunger, poor health and homelessness, and all the other problems from mental illness and social issues. It would be a nightmare scenario.
Suicide Rate In U.S. And Europe Climbed During Great Recession
Suicide Rate In U.S. And Europe Climbed During Great Recession

 

[stevevw]

Many of those who support lifting restrictions believe the deadly character of the virus to be a worldwide conspiracy concocted by liberals to make Trump look bad. They don't believe that lifting restrictions would have a bad result.

From what I am seeing and reading it is those States that have taken this attitude of not treating the virus seriously and putting strict measures in place that are the ones where the virus is getting out of control.

 

[stevevw]

I'm talking about the good work of reducing the amount of living humans on this planet.

OK is this the harvest that the Bible talks about or is this just a worldview idea to reduce the population so that it takes the pressure of the planet's resources.

 

[Nithavela]

OK is this the harvest that the Bible talks about or is this just a worldview idea to reduce the population so that it takes the pressure of the planet's resources.

Since I'm not a christian, it's the latter.

 

[stevevw]

Since I'm not a Christian, it's the latter.

So you're all for reducing the population no matter how that happens.

 

[KCfromNC]

Yes, they are serious questions. It could be that job loses and business closures also lead to serious problems like mental illness, domestic violence through financial stress or a person losing identity especially males and they lose all sense of who they are and then lash out.

We're down to comparing a "could be" with an actual disease which is killing actual people here in the US at an actual rate of 1000 a day. I know which I'll pay more attention to.

 

[stevevw]

We're down to comparing a "could be" with an actual disease which is killing actual people here in the US at an actual rate of 1000 a day. I know which I'll pay more attention to.

I agree that so many people dying is no good. But the problem I see is that restrictions may reduce the death rate but it will never get rid of the virus to nil. So that would mean making 100% of the people always adhering to the measures to reduce the virus all the time. But we have seen that is near impossible. The restrictions were there but people became frustrated and didn't follow them. The authorities cannot be everywhere all the time. That is how the second wave has begun.

I am not sure we will ever stamp it out and there will be 3rd, fourth, and multiple waves. That means we will have to have restrictions all the time which means businesses may never be able to open and there will be continuous job losses.

It is not a case of if the fallout from restrictions will cause harm and deaths. It will cause many deaths from the examples of what has happened with other recessions and job losses in the past. Mental illness has increased to very high levels since the virus and job loses and we know from research that mental illness causes a lot of damage to society including deaths. Though I agree that it is better to have restrictions and stop deaths I cannot see how we are going to overcome this with restrictions.

 

[KCfromNC]

I agree that so many people dying is no good. But the problem I see is that restrictions may reduce the death rate but it will never get rid of the virus to nil. So that would mean making 100% of the people always adhering to the measures to reduce the virus all the time. But we have seen that is near impossible. The restrictions were there but people became frustrated and didn't follow them.

Well, that and federal leadership decided that the economy was more important.

Mental illness has increased to very high levels since the virus

What levels, specifically, and how much has it gone up? Let's see the data you're working from here.

 

[Running2win]

So what if your a young person or any person for that matter and you are not wearing a mask and get the virus and then contaminate an elderly person (perhaps your own grandmother) and they die. Are you then culpable for their death? Would you feel guilty? Could that death have been avoided? Wouldnt that elderly person have a right to life and still offer happiness and value to other people in their life. They may have been a helper of others themselves and made a big difference in the lives of others. That may lead to other devastating effects.

No I would not. God is in control of who dies. The liberal mind will always think they are more compassionate than God or anyone else, and they want everyone to suffer with them and be afraid of what they are.

That's why the sick and elderly should wear a mask, but not the person that might possibly have the virus and does not get sick. Let them develop immunity. That's how it works.

And the mask has to be one that will not let the virus pass through, and must be fitted properly to be effective. I know, I use to clean hosp. rooms and TB rooms. Those cloth masks and paper ones are a joke. If you have the virus, it will pass through.

They only help by keeping large droplets from fling out when you sneeze or cough. You could cough in your sleeve and get the same effect. Sick people wear masks, not the healthy.

 

[pitabread]

Yes, they are serious questions. It could be that job loses and business closures also lead to serious problems like mental illness, domestic violence through financial stress or a person losing identity especially males and they lose all sense of who they are and then lash out. As a result of these issues, they can also cause deaths from a lack of caring about what happens and losing control to direct suicide.

Sure that could happen. But the question is are such effects worse than the virus? As economies open back up and the virus starts ramping up its spread, what is the impact of that?

For example, Texas is seeing its health services becoming overwhelmed by COVID-19 cases. One hospital is having to pick and choose who gets medical care: Texas hospital forced to set up 'death panel' as Covid-19 cases surge

These are the effects the virus can have.

So what is worse? The shutdowns and economic impacts versus opening the economy and the virus? If you believe the former is worse, what data supports this?

For example, studies show that there is a link between males losing their job and suicide. There was a spike in suicide rates during the great depression.

I already responded to this point. Yes, during downward economies fatalities linked to suicide increase. However, other types of fatalities decline.

Mortality rates fell overall during the great depression (human life expectancy increased). This holds true for other recessions as well.

 

[Running2win]

Sure that could happen. But the question is are such effects worse than the virus? If economies open back up and the virus starts resuming its spread, what is the impact of that?

For example, Texas is seeing its health services becoming overwhelmed by COVID-19 cases. One hospital is having to pick and choose who gets medical care: Texas hospital forced to set up 'death panel' as Covid-19 cases surge

These are the effects the virus can have.

So what is worse? The shutdowns and economic impacts versus opening the economy and the virus? If you believe the former is worse, what data supports this?



I already responded to this point. Yes, during downward economies fatalities linked to suicide increase. However, other types of fatalities decline.

Mortality rates fell overall during the great depression (human life expectancy increased). This holds true for other recessions as well.

The source hates Trump and anything right of left. It's the sensational media- just like NY was at first. They are being overrun and we are all going to die!!!! Yikes! They want it to look like this is going to happen everywhere. What are the Facts? It has not. Think people. Calm down and take a breath.

Sure one hospital can get overwhelmed, esp. if they don't have a ICU unit and have people that need ICU trained nurses. They just have to transfer the patients to another one, they do it all the time with regular cases when they have staffing issues or have cases they can't handle. They are mandated by the government to have certain staffing ratios. This is what NY learned, they have to share with other hospitals in the city or county.

Medical staff on short notice is hard to get, thus the Army steps in. That's great! My wife is an ICU nurse and we have both worked in four different state and 5-6 different Hosp. I know how this works. But you can believe the liberal, sky is falling media if you want.

 

[pitabread]

Sure one hospital can get overwhelmed, esp. if they don't have a ICU unit and have people that need ICU trained nurses. They just have to transfer the patients to another one, they do it all the time with regular cases when they have staffing issues or have cases they can't handle

They're not talking about sending people to other hospitals. They're talking about sending people home.

 

[Running2win]

They're not talking about sending people to other hospitals. They're talking about sending people home.

Key word is "talking about". They formed a committee, and now they have resources. They probably won't have to and they should of spoke up sooner in order to get help sooner. And this is "one" hospital mind you. You see how the hype of the media is producing fear and doom and gloom?

Oh wait, just cuzz this is being discussed it's getting so bad we have to shut the whole world down! How stupid of me!

Life and death choices are made everyday in hospitals already by doctors and families, it's called DNR, and end of life directives. When a patient has a very low chance of survival. They don't do things like vent or try to bring them back if they code. This is decided by the doctor and the family, and makes a lot of sense.

My wife has seen time and time again family members not willing to face the truth and let go, and put their loved one through more needless pain and suffering when it is hopeless.

Just like they will not perform open heart surgery unless the patient has a good % they will make it through the operation. There is a cost benefit ratio- should we save a 85 year old person with multiple complications only to die 1 year later after laying in a nursing home? Should anyone be tube fed just to keep them alive? Should people be on a vent when they have a slim chance of pulling through and they are very sickly to start with?

The answer for any rational person is no. But when it comes to death, people tend to lose all objectivity and reason.

 

[pitabread]

Life and death choices are made everyday in hospitals already by doctors and families, it's called DNR, and end of life directives. When a patient has a very low chance of survival. They don't do things like vent or try to bring them back if they code. This is decided by the doctor and the family, and makes a lot of sense.

We're not talking about things like DNR. We're talking about the fact that the pandemic has resulted in health services activating emergency measures.

This isn't isolated to this one hospital either. Hospitals in various locales are seeing massive surges in hospitalizations as a result of the pandemic and it's putting a strain on the collective health care services.

 

[Running2win]

We're not talking about things like DNR. We're talking about the fact that the pandemic has resulted in health services activating emergency measures.

This isn't isolated to this one hospital either. Hospitals in various locales are seeing massive surges in hospitalizations as a result of the pandemic and it's putting a strain on the collective health care services.

No it won't, it will just be job security for healthcare workers.

 

[pitabread]

No it won't, it will just be job security for healthcare workers.

It's not a question of "won't". It already *is*.

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