Corona-virus, a new ethical dilemma, to lock-down or not to lock-down

[loveofourlord]

The source hates Trump and anything right of left. It's the sensational media- just like NY was at first. They are being overrun and we are all going to die!!!! Yikes! They want it to look like this is going to happen everywhere. What are the Facts? It has not. Think people. Calm down and take a breath.

Sure one hospital can get overwhelmed, esp. if they don't have a ICU unit and have people that need ICU trained nurses. They just have to transfer the patients to another one, they do it all the time with regular cases when they have staffing issues or have cases they can't handle. They are mandated by the government to have certain staffing ratios. This is what NY learned, they have to share with other hospitals in the city or county.

Medical staff on short notice is hard to get, thus the Army steps in. That's great! My wife is an ICU nurse and we have both worked in four different state and 5-6 different Hosp. I know how this works. But you can believe the liberal, sky is falling media if you want.

Hospitals with room arn't taking patients from other hospitals in order for them to be able to handle their own local populations.

 

[Running2win]

Hospitals with room arn't taking patients from other hospitals in order for them to be able to handle their own local populations.

That is not entirely true. The wife just got slammed from a bigger hospital in St. Louis that dumped a bunch of patients they were not going to get much $$$ for, onto them. It's pretty well about dollars and cents.

Many hospitals in big cities have a "system", and can transfer within. Smaller, more isolated areas don't. And nobody wants to live there in the first place so getting people to come there is a continual challenge. Health care is sometimes the only pony in town.

In high crime areas it's hard to get people too- like some areas of most cities too. No one wants to work where you might get mugged, raped, or carjacked.

With the government stepping in now, hot spots can be contained, but they have to communicate with them before it gets too bad.

That's really where all the problems come in now, is redirecting resources from hospital to hospital where hot spots are. It's not the every hospital is being overwhelmed-like the media plays it up as. I don't think the general public understands this. They just believe everything that is being reported as the Gods honest truth. It's not. It is drama and theater for the most part. And when you play it over and over 24/7, you start to think that's all there is. This is mind and thought control of the highest form.

 

[loveofourlord]

That is not entirely true. The wife just got slammed from a bigger hospital in St. Louis that dumped a bunch of patients they were not going to get much $$$ for, onto them. It's pretty well about dollars and cents.

Many hospitals in big cities have a "system", and can transfer within. Smaller, more isolated areas don't. And nobody wants to live there in the first place so getting people to come there is a continual challenge. Health care is sometimes the only pony in town.

In high crime areas it's hard to get people too- like some areas of most cities too. No one wants to work where you might get mugged, raped, or carjacked.

With the government stepping in now, hot spots can be contained, but they have to communicate with them before it gets too bad.

That's really where all the problems come in now, is redirecting resources from hospital to hospital where hot spots are. It's not the every hospital is being overwhelmed-like the media plays it up as. I don't think the general public understands this. They just believe everything that is being reported as the Gods honest truth. It's not. It is drama and theater for the most part. And when you play it over and over 24/7, you start to think that's all there is. This is mind and thought control of the highest form.

No you don't understand, a lot of the issues is resources, covid takes alot of resources to take care of and hopsitals have limited supplies. Right now many hospitals can't take any more covid patients, and those that can like I said are holding space for their own patients.

 

[Running2win]

No you don't understand, a lot of the issues is resources, covid takes alot of resources to take care of and hopsitals have limited supplies. Right now many hospitals can't take any more covid patients, and those that can like I said are holding space for their own patients.

Some, not "many". Every state in the USA is not in your boat, there are a few.

So, back to the OP, we have to open up and allow elective surgeries. This brings in dollars and allows people to get back to work that are not working where it is closed down. Hospital rooms sitting empty just like hotel rooms being empty is not helping the problem. Fear doesn't accomplish nothing except it compounds more fear.

We can go around and around about this, but we will never agree.

 

[loveofourlord]

Some, not "many". Every state in the USA is not in your boat, there are a few.

So, back to the OP, we have to open up and allow elective surgeries. This brings in dollars and allows people to get back to work that are not working where it is closed down. Hospital rooms sitting empty just like hotel rooms being empty is not helping the problem. Fear doesn't accomplish nothing except it compounds more fear.

We can go around and around about this, but we will never agree.

.....love how you just go, "Oh well." the places that opened up too soon are being overwhelmed and risk having to reclose, is that your idea? Open up here and there then close as soon as things get bad? Your solution does more harm then good. It's not about living in fear, it's about not being idiotic with a disease that kills, and causes massive problems.

 

[stevevw]

Well, that and federal leadership decided that the economy was more important.

From my perspective, I think Trump seems to want to put the economy first. His reluctance to take the precautions seriously seems to send a message that following restrictions is not a top priority. I guess being a business person and wanting the economy to do well for the upcoming election is his motivation.

What levels, specifically, and how much has it gone up? Let's see the data you're working from here.

The problem is most governments dedicate little to mental health support as it is not as tangible as physical health. So little money has been invested in the past. Yet many are saying the mental health issues that were already brewing before the coronavirus hit and the massive increase that will come after it in the weeks, months, and even years are going to be like a tidal wave and we are not prepared.

The fall out cannot be underestimated. The rage we are seeing now may be the tip of the iceberg as anger is usually the first sign of mental health issues followed by anxiety, grief, depression, and PTSD which then leads into a number of issues like family breakdowns, DV, substance abuse, homelessness, and ultimately self-harm and suicide. The mental health fallout usually outweighs the actual event by far in all other research for traumatic events like the virus and the associated fallout.

The signs are there from the data below but it is still early days. Many are holding on in hope that things will return to normal. But as they don't and people cannot hold on this is when things will begin to collapse. The point is we should not wait for things to get worse before we act. The data shows that in all other times when there have been recessions or disasters mental health issues follow. The virus s unprecedented and massive so the fallout is going to be massive.

The coronavirus pandemic is pushing America into a mental health crisis
Federal agencies and experts warn that a historic wave of mental-health problems is approaching: depression, substance abuse, post-traumatic stress disorder, and suicide.
Data shows depression and anxiety already roiling the nation.

Nearly half of Americans report the coronavirus crisis is harming their mental health, according to a Kaiser Family Foundation poll. A federal emergency hotline for people in emotional distress registered a more than 1,000 percent increase in April compared with the same time last year. Last month, roughly 20,000 people texted that hotline, run by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration.

Online therapy company Talkspace reported a 65 percent jump in clients since mid-February. Text messages and transcribed therapy sessions collected anonymously by the company show coronavirus-related anxiety dominating patients’ concerns.

Researchers have created models — based on data collected after natural disasters, terrorist attacks, and economic downturns — that show a likely increase in suicides, overdose deaths and substance use disorders.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/05/04/mental-health-coronavirus/

New study shows staggering effect of coronavirus pandemic on America’s mental health
The results were staggering: The 2020 participants were eight times as likely to screen positive for serious mental illness – 28%, compared to 3.4% in the 2018 survey. The vast majority of the 2020 participants, 70%, met the criteria for moderate to serious mental illness, compared with 22% in 2018.
Clearly, the pandemic has had a devastating effect on mental health.
New study shows staggering effect of coronavirus pandemic on America's mental health

It would be the same for all Nations. I know My country Australia is experiencing a massive increase in calls to crisis hotlines, charities for food, and counselling for mental illness as I work in the industry. We are preparing for the onslaught when the government begins to reduce support which will cause even more pain and suffering. Unless we change the way we live as far as welfare and economic policies there will be big problems.

It is fine to have these restrictions but they are not dealing with the reality that the virus is not going away and peoples lives are being destroyed.

 

[KCfromNC]

New study shows staggering effect of coronavirus pandemic on America’s mental health
The results were staggering: The 2020 participants were eight times as likely to screen positive for serious mental illness – 28%, compared to 3.4% in the 2018 survey. The vast majority of the 2020 participants, 70%, met the criteria for moderate to serious mental illness, compared with 22% in 2018.
Clearly, the pandemic has had a devastating effect on mental health.
New study shows staggering effect of coronavirus pandemic on America's mental health

New Mental Health Data Offers First Glimpse of COVID-19’s Psychological Toll

While some might point to the psychological blowback as a reason to reopen the economy and lift restrictions, Twenge says that course of action is also fraught. “Opening up too soon and then having to shut back down could also have very negative consequences from a mental health perspective, such as a further increase in mental distress,” she says.​

 

[stevevw]

Sure that could happen. But the question is are such effects worse than the virus? As economies open back up and the virus starts ramping up its spread, what is the impact of that?

This is the dilemma I think. The longer we put restrictions in place the more people suffer in other ways and then demand the lifting of restrictions. They don't follow the restrictions as they get sick of not being able to have their normal lives. But when we begin to reduce the restrictions as the virus reduces it flares up again. This could go on forever. I don't think there is ever going to be a time where we can open up for business without the virus flaring up. It is a catch 22 situation.

For example, Texas is seeing its health services becoming overwhelmed by COVID-19 cases. One hospital is having to pick and choose who gets medical care: Texas hospital forced to set up 'death panel' as Covid-19 cases surge

These are the effects the virus can have.

I guess it will depend on each country or state and city as to the level of contamination and health supports they have. In the situation like in Texas, they have no choice but to keep restrictions in place as their health system cannot cope.

So what is worse? The shutdowns and economic impacts versus opening the economy and the virus? If you believe the former is worse, what data supports this?

This is the idea of this forum to find out. I guess each situation will be different. Like in Melbourne Australia they got the rates of contamination down to single numbers and began to open up for business but still having some restrictions. Then it flared up again and they are now in an even worse situation than before. I just wonder is there ever going to be a time when economies can reopen without causing the virus to flare up again.

I already responded to this point. Yes, during downward economies fatalities linked to suicide increase. However, other types of fatalities decline.

Mortality rates fell overall during the great depression (human life expectancy increased). This holds true for other recessions as well.

I think this time in history is different though. Where more populated, mental illness was already a growing problem that has not been addressed, there are more complexities than in the past.

The thing with mental illness is that it is more than just mortality. It has a far-reaching effect and because we are already experiencing high mental illness this can be something that pushes many over the edge. I think we were more resilient in the past but now we are more vulnerable. But either way, whether it is keep restrictions or get back to business we are between a rock and a hard place.

 

[stevevw]

New Mental Health Data Offers First Glimpse of COVID-19’s Psychological Toll

While some might point to the psychological blowback as a reason to reopen the economy and lift restrictions, Twenge says that course of action is also fraught. “Opening up too soon and then having to shut back down could also have very negative consequences from a mental health perspective, such as a further increase in mental distress,” she says.​

Yes I agree. Businesses in Melbourne were gradually reopening after getting things under control. Then the virus flared up again and they have had to reclose which has devasted many. Some have given up and closed for good. But the point is I think they were ready and it was the nature of the virus in that it is near impossible to shut out completely despite the measures to stop it.

I question whether we will ever get to a point where we can reopen for business without it flaring again. It only takes one person to be A systematic and slip through the cracks for it to start spreading again as by the time they are diagnosed they have interacted and spread the virus. It has a multiplying effect and then it gets out of control again.

We would have to have some very strict measures in place to the point where people are put in prison for breaching the restrictions. But even then human nature is that people will defy the rules and laws. It would be like trying to stop colds and the flu happening which we know we cannot do.

 

[KCfromNC]

Yes I agree. Businesses in Melbourne were gradually reopening after getting things under control. Then the virus flared up again and they have had to reclose which has devasted many. Some have given up and closed for good. But the point is I think they were ready and it was the nature of the virus in that it is near impossible to shut out completely despite the measures to stop it.

I question whether we will ever get to a point where we can reopen for business without it flaring again. It only takes one person to be A systematic and slip through the cracks for it to start spreading again as by the time they are diagnosed they have interacted and spread the virus. It has a multiplying effect and then it gets out of control again.

We would have to have some very strict measures in place to the point where people are put in prison for breaching the restrictions. But even then human nature is that people will defy the rules and laws. It would be like trying to stop colds and the flu happening which we know we cannot do.

Yeah, I'm coming at this from a US perspective, where it seems that "lockdown" actually means "kinda wear masks and only interact with people you 'feel' safe around, mostly, and then only for a month or two until you get bored". So while that's obviously too loose a standard, as shown by the fact we can't even join the 1st world and get the initial wave under control, the opposite goal of total eradication (without a vaccine) is probably a long shot as well.

 

[stevevw]

Yeah, I'm coming at this from a US perspective, where it seems that "lockdown" actually means "kinda wear masks and only interact with people you 'feel' safe around, mostly, and then only for a month or two until you get bored". So while that's obviously too loose a standard, as shown by the fact we can't even join the 1st world and get the initial wave under control, the opposite goal of total eradication (without a vaccine) is probably a long shot as well.

I live in Queensland and after getting the virus down to single figures we have had a second wave in Victoria and then an outbreak has begun in Sydney NSW has . Now we have a possible outbreak in Qld after getting the Virus down to zero new cases and only a couple of recovering cases. It seems a couple of people who had tested positive lied about their health status and they have been mixing with others since being back. Now Queensland is at risk of the same thing happening as Victoria and NSW with a second wave of the Virus.

This will mean Queensland will have to go back into strict measures again and businesses may have to close again. It seems now Australia is going into another wave of the virus with the strict measures coming back in. Businesses are devasted as it means stopping tourists from the southern States and social distancing again. That is why I am saying that we can never get rid of the virus and these restrictions will go on forever. That is why some are calling to just let business get back to normal so we can let the virus take its course as other viruses have done.

I don't think that is the answer either but we cannot go on like this uncertainty as it is hurting a lot of people. The government cannot afford to keep propping up things with borrowed money as this will have a negative effect on inflation and confidence. In some cases, it's going to bankrupt entire nations the way things are going. That will cause more harm than the virus is I think where we have people suffering not just from mental illness but also from poverty and all its effects.