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None of that describes my theological position.
Well their seem to be different types and nuances. I was raised in a Cessionist Lutheran church, that believed that miracles "died out with the apostles" and they basically had no hope or Faith for any kind of a miraculous answer to prayer. And I've seen that a lot.
You said:Lately, I have been watching some Calvinist Apologetics folks who go after the TV preachers etc. and they are a lot more nuanced in believing you can still have miracles via Faith etc. even though gifts like healing, which they define as "doing something by command" is not around anymore.
Cessationism is saying that the miraculous gifts given to God's people have ended, but they do not deny that the Spirit gives gifts in regards to other non-miraculous gifts such as teaching, and evangelism, etc.
Things like the gift of tongues, the gift of interpretation of tongues, and the gift of healing do not appear to be around to our knowledge. If so, point me to these believers who are still doing such things.
Many would say that occasional granting of some of the gifts named in Corinthians may have happened in modern times...but that the phenomenon as a significant and commonly witnessed feature of the Church ceased once the purpose (spreading the early church into a pagan world) had been accomplished.
But clearly the gift of apostleship has ceased. Even some Continuationists believe this way. Paul referred to himself as the last apostle (1 Corinthians 15:8); And in Ephesians 2:20, it says that the church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Meaning, we are not laying any new apostles upon the foundation because the foundation has already been laid (with Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone or base foundation of course).
I wonder how many Continuationists are aware of either the POV or the number of people who take that view.Only the barest handful of ultra-hard-core Cessationists would deny that.
I wonder how many Continuationists are aware of either the POV or the number of people who take that view.
Judging from the debates I've witnessed, it's almost none. For them, it has to be all or nothing.
So if you do believe that the gospel of the kingdom is still valid today, I don't understand why you would hold the cessationalist view.
Aren't signs and wonders linked to that gospel? How did Jesus prove to the Jews that he was indeed the promised Messiah? What is the Gospel of John a record of?
I guess I can relate to people as Apostles who don't really call themselves that, but prove themselves by their deeds.
Contrary to what was said in an earlier post, however, the "Gift of Apostleship" is not one of the "Gifts of the Holy Spirit."
Whichever way we look at the subject of "Apostleship," the scriptural basis is something else.
Jas 5
13Is any one of you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone cheerful? He should sing praises. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail.
Surely if your theology denies these simple scriptures you will not be likely to see healing and you will take this as evidence of your 'correct' theology.
Is this not a circular sadness founded in unbelief...
When the church looses His power through compromise - the gifts cease.
When simple folk revisit the word in simplicity and faith - they read and believe once again and His healing grace returns.
It's not the skepticism that is the issue, it is the MANNER it which it is continually done. I have no doubt there are some sincere skeptics out there, but they don't seem to be the ones asking questions. What I have seen - every single time - from those actually asking for "proof" is that they aren't looking for proof, they are trying to prove their own point and will immediately put down any proof that is given without a second thought. Every. Single. Time. Which is my point. That is not Christ-like behavior in the least.Not really. It's easy to say "Oh good, they continued after all!"
And indeed, there are a lot of "Soft Cessationists" who believe that the "sign gifts" might still occur in distant mission fields. That is, they are open to the possibility.
The TV has shown us so many false "prophecies," so many fake "healings," and so many "tongues" that are not tongues.
You must admit that a degree of scepticism is unsurprising.
And it really doesn't help when the Cessationist asking for evidence is accused of being un-Christian.
It's not the skepticism that is the issue, it is the MANNER it which it is continually done. I have no doubt there are some sincere skeptics out there, but they don't seem to be the ones asking questions.
Contrary to what was said in an earlier post, however, the "Gift of Apostleship" is not one of the "Gifts of the Holy Spirit."
Whichever way we look at the subject of "Apostleship," the scriptural basis is something else.
1 Corinthians 12:28-31 appears to teach that this is so.
Paul was gifted with being an apostle. It was not something Paul chose for himself. God gifted him in being an apostle.
What I have seen - every single time - from those actually asking for "proof" is that they aren't looking for proof, they are trying to prove their own point and will immediately put down any proof that is given without a second thought. Every. Single. Time. Which is my point.
God appointed him to the office of apostle.
Being an apostle is not on the list of "spiritual gifts."
The case for cessationism is based on the fact that they did cease to be a feature of Christ's church at some point in the past.
The case for continuationism, at least as it has been made on these forums before, is based on saying "No, Christ promised that that would not happen so history must be wrong, no matter what the evidence is."
Which of those seems the more compelling argument?
"No, Christ promised that that would not happen so history must be wrong, no matter what the evidence is."
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