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Convince me of Continuationism.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jul 12, 2020.

  1. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    Among other things, that the spiritual gift of raising people from the dead has ceased.

    But this is something that Continuationists believe in. It's not relevant to the discussion.

    Oh? Which ones?

    Which "Serbian war"?
     
  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I agree. It is not necessary to say that no occurrence ever happens anymore for a "cessationist" to maintain his position, although taking this approach won't satisfy a "continuationist" in the least.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
  3. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Yes, you along with millions of other historic Catholics and Orthodox who are continuationalist by default by virtue of never creating or perpetuating an official dogma that the gifts ceased....
     
  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Oh, come on now. It's not necessary to talk like that simply to take another view and offer a defense of it.

    I notice that neither cessationism nor continuationism is defended--or explained--in this reply. And absolutely nothing about either view was "demonstrated." It's all about people who are supposed to be on one side or the other.
     
  5. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Hmm. It seems to be the 'go-to' argument used in the threads here that have dealt with the topic. It's not the only argument, of course.
     
  6. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    I must say that I don't fully understand the Catholic position.

    The Catholic Catechism #1508 states "The Holy Spirit gives to some a special charism of healing," which seems Continuationist.

    However, the preferred Catholic mode of healing seems to the sacrament of Anointing of the Sick, which seems Cessationist.
     
  7. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    Most of what Keener describes seems to be miracles following prayer (C.S. Lewis also describes a case of this). But, for the umpteenth time, Cessationists believe in that, so it's not germane.

    Some of what Keener describes goes beyond miracles following prayer, and fits in with the sort of "soft Cessationism" that accepts "sign gifts" in the mission field.
     
  8. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    The whole thread is a little disappointing.

    And we haven't even touched on the "soft Continuationism" of John Piper yet.
     
  9. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Their probably needs to be some kind of neutral category for Historic Christianity, that has no defined dogma on the topic.


    According to specific Cessionist views that allow for miracles, but say specific gifts have disappeared (one's done by command for instance) Catholics, Orthodox, and I'm guessing folks like Assyrian Church of the East would normally operate as "defacto" Cessionists.

    But then again there can be certain saints that pop up that they recognize that don't fit those kind of rules....
     
  10. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Doesn't all of that mean that the HS does this, but rarely? Meanwhile, the Church provides a sacramental solution for everybody else. It might be something like agreeing that going directly to God in prayer can bring the absolution of one's sins, but nevertheless, the sacrament of Reconciliation exists (and may be preferable, according to the Church, for various reasons).
     
  11. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    It might mean that; or it might be a theological compromise to satisfy Charismatic Catholics.
     
  12. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    I think you lean towards mid acts dispensationalism?

    Signs and wonders were linked to the gospel of the kingdom.

    So naturally, if you hold the doctrine that the gospel of the kingdom was for the nation Israel only, and when they rejected their king, this gospel is no longer valid until the rapture, you would conclude that signs and wonders will also be put aside for now.

    But once the Tribulation begins after the rapture of the Body of Christ, signs and wonders would restart again.
     
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    That's the power of prayer. The "Gifts of the Holy Spirit" are something else--and different in several ways.

    Lots of people make the same claim, but it's impossible for the rest of us to comment on that without knowing a lot more about it

    How "shown?" As I recall, it was widely predicted and discussed in the media that this would be an almost certain consequence of Tito's death.
     
  14. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    And fair enough. One might say that certain spiritual gifts have ceased, as a general rule, while at the same time agreeing that God can do whatever He wants.
     
  15. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    None of that describes my theological position.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe God can still do miracles today (like healing people), but this is by His own choosing. Continuationism is the continuation of the apostolistic miraculous gifts (not miracles in general by God) such as the gift of speaking in tongues, the gift of interpretation of tongues, the gift of healing, and the gift of prophecy, etc. have continued for today and have not ceased. Cessationism is saying that the miraculous gifts given to God's people have ended, but they do not deny that the Spirit gives gifts in regards to other non-miraculous gifts such as teaching, and evangelism, etc.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But clearly the gift of apostleship has ceased. Even some Continuationists believe this way. Paul referred to himself as the last apostle (1 Corinthians 15:8); And in Ephesians 2:20, it says that the church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Meaning, we are not laying any new apostles upon the foundation because the foundation has already been laid (with Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone or base foundation of course).
     
  18. Albion

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    The insertion of that particular language into the Catechism might have been done for that reason.
     
  19. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    There is also a "soft Continuationism" which claims that:

    (1) the gift of infallible prophecy has ceased, but there is a continuing gift of fallible prophecy (personally, I see no evidence of such a "gift" in the NT)

    (2) the gift of tongues in the sense of Acts of the Apostles 2:6-11 has ceased, but there is a continuing gift of tongues in the sense of an "ecstatic prayer language," which is what you typically hear in a Pentecostal service (personally, I see no evidence of such a "gift" in the NT either)
     
  20. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    The sacramental position is not just about that stuff. From the Catholic side yes, but not from the Eastern side. I'm talking about Palamite theology or a general idea in terms of "energy" etc. Things aren't only about some action of the HS that occurs Sovereignly etc. things can also be about consecration. I blogged/ Face book posted a few years back about an experience that happened around 1993/1994....


    Personal Story on Consecration (One of the unrealized avenues for Charismatic Witnessing and Evangelism)

    A week ago I had a discussion / disagreement with a Christian that was very put off by the notion that objects in the New Testament era might actually be somehow “consecrated” or even holy (because they are set apart for the ministry of the Gospel). I used many examples that showed that this was not purely Old Testament or even Roman Catholic, but such things actually took place in the New Testament as well. But one of the things, I left out was an actual personal story that happened in my own life.


    In the house where I grew up (from 1st grade into college even graduate school) we had a “Living Room” which basically acted as a parlor. My mother was one of the main organists for our local Lutheran church and that was the room she tended to practice her hymns and Lutheran liturgy in and that was something that was mostly ongoing from the 1975-1993. Besides being the organ practice room had another use. In grade school a conflict happened at the local church that led to a church split. The only other Lutheran church in my town was a liberal one, that my parents couldn’t agree with. So for a year or so, under the advice a Lutheran pastor my folks respected we had church service in our home every Sunday for almost a year in that room. My father would lead devotions based on a devotional publication from a new Lutheran synod he just joined, and we also every month would get a few tape recorded sermons mailed to us from some Lutheran pastors we knew that we could listen to as well. Finally, the room became a Bible study and prayer room for, especially after I joined the Charismatic movement in 1990 onward. The room had a good peaceful feeling to it and I tended to use it for graduate school studying as well.


    While in grad school I met a friend of a friend. This person was unlike any of my friends and associates. All my other friends tended to fall into one of two categories. 1) People who were openly Christian. Or 2) People who were probably some form of agnostic but reasonably neutral and respectful of their more Christian associates. This was more or less true of most friends and acquaintances, that is until I met Jim. Jim started a whole new class of friends and associates, namely those who are: 3) Openly derogatory of Christianity. The man seemed to have no filter over his mouth, he could see something like a Christian plaque or the title of a book, and could not help but blurt out something insulting about the ignorance of the person writing it etc. This occurred even when he might have to ask you for a favor, or otherwise was on the receiving end of social graces and hospitality.


    Besides this associate was unlike any of my other friends, for he was the only one that had any interest in the occult. Strangely enough, his interest was less in the practical end of trying to use the occult as some kind of practical way like many try to use it to help them in romance, to help earn more money etc. Rather than being interested in such things as spell casting, dousing rods, horoscopes etc. this person was for the most part only interested more in to what is termed theosophy, which is the philosophical end of the occult.

    Anyway an interesting thing happened one day, while my group of friends were looking to go to the movies together.... I had forgotten a wind breaker jacket and asked that we stop by my house to get it. So my friends, not wanting to wait in the car followed me into my parent’s house where I was staying at the time. What caught me by surprise however was Jim’s exclamation upon immediately entering my parent’s house and looking off to the side where the Living room / organ practice room was. “THERE’S A LOT OF POWER COMING FROM THAT ROOM!” is what he immediately blurted out.


    It's interesting in all my talking to this person he was the most close minded person I knew as far as being willing to consider the Gospel as far as all my conversations and interactions of him went. However, his pride and skepticism was momentarily challenged by coming into contact with a Christian sacred space. This story should likewise encourage others in their establishing sacred spaces within their homes, offices etc. For in the Bible, people, objects and places that become dedicated to God become vessels that some aspect of his power and glory. So I would submit establishing sacred spaces is yet another way we can witness to Christ and “occupy until returns” (Luke 19:13)

    PS – The great irony of this story as well is parents are non-charismatic. My father is somewhat open to the idea, but my mother can legitimately be called a charismaphobic (very afraid of Holy Rollers). The great irony is in Eastern Orthodox terms much of the worship that “charged” the room with the air of the supernatural came from a lady who is deathly afraid of such things! This itself hopefully will be an encouragement for folks afraid that there “Faith is too weak” for the charisms etc.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
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