Convince me of Continuationism.

[swordsman1]

Some cesstionists argue (in a rather tortured exegesis of 1Cor 13:8-12):
(1) The gifts were given unto the aim of achieving churchwide maturity.
(2) That goal was eventually reached in the early church
(3) Therefore the gifts vanished from them.
Don't you see why it backfires? Again, any NEW church planted today is beset with rampant immaturity. If the gifts automatically flourish as God's cure for immaturity, they would be flourishing all over the world today.

Who are these cessationists that say the gifts ceased when "churchwide unity" was achieved in the early church? Don't tell me you're lying yet again. The only cessationist scholar I know that said something similar is Robert Thomas, and if it is he who you are referring to then you have grossly misrepresented him (not the first time you've done that). Thomas said the gifts would cease once a certain level of maturity was reached, and that step was achieved when the church had the completed canon.

 

[JAL]

I never said that. You're lying (again).

Um..extrapolation isn't lying.

What is the foundation? You reply by citing a verse:

Eph 2:20 "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone."

That's the verse in ambiguity here. The challenge is to INTERPRET the verse, not to REPEAT the verse. Believe it or not, I can get a copy of the verse on my own. Let's cut to the chase. You were give four questions. You didn't provide clear answers to all four.

That's what a moving target does. He can always address some of the questions at any time. But to answer them ALL together at once exposes the contradictions. Conclusion: Non-responsive on your part. As predicted.

Silly question. How many times do you normally lay a foundation?

Read Rom 15. It was REGIONAL. (Apparently Paul didn't think it was a silly question).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It's the same Spirit given to us as to the apostles. Why would we then not have the same gifts?

Ephesians 4
1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Because the signs were to confirm the Word (Mark 16:20).
To confirm that the messengers of the early church were from God.
Many people today know the Bible is God's Holy Word.
The Jews sought after a sign (1 Corinthians 1:22), and it was given to them as a form of warning and judgment that their temple was going to be destroyed (Which took place in 70AD).

The three greatest miracle workers in the Bible was Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. Funny how all three of these great miracle workers were seen all together at the transfiguration on the Mount. Anyways, after Moses had worked his great miracles, we slowly see them taper off, and we do not read of any great miracles like that for a long period of time. The same is true with Elijah. He worked great miracles, but after his miracles, the miracles began to taper off and we do not read of any great miracles like that for a long period of time. This implies that Jesus (being the third greatest miracle worker) would follow that same pattern to show that He was also a great prophet of God.

What Paul was able to do in Acts of the Apostles 19:12 (as a part of the gift of healing), it appeared that he could no longer do in 1 Timothy 5:23 (Thereby implying his gift was temporary). Apostleship is a gift (Ephesians 4:8, Ephesians 4:11). Yet, Paul said that the believers at Ephesus were built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets (with Christ being the chief cornerstone) (See: Ephesians 2:20). In other words, the apostles (which being an apostle was a gift) were temporary because the saints at Ephesus were to be built upon them. When you build a house, there is a foundation that is laid first before you can build your house upon it. This is what Jesus, the prophets, and the apostles were. Yet, the Ephesian believers were the actual building itself.

Jesus said in John 20:29, “blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” Hebrews 11:1 says, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Romans 10:17 says, “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Miracles or signs is all about what you see. But faith is something unseen. In John 20:29, I believe Jesus here was speaking prophetically of a time of when men could have the potential to truly be blessed by not seeing and yet believing. For remember, Thomas had to see and feel the miracle of Jesus being alive in order to believe. Yet, Jesus was saying that those who do not see and yet they believed are more blessed. Miracles and or sign gifts kind of gets in the way of that a bit.

If prophecy has continued, then that means we should be looking to add more visions, dreams, prophecies to the back of our Bibles. We should be placing these things on equal authority with Scripture. But I have not seen anything that is on the same level of Scripture. Have you? Revelation 22:18 “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:” This would be the whole of the Bible being “this book” because men in the Modern Translation camp have added words to God's Holy Word and they have lost their voice, i.e. they received the frog in their throat plague (Which was a plague in another part of the Bible and not in Revelation).

There is more of course.

 

[JAL]

The plain reading of Eph 2:20 proves you wrong.

"built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone."​

How can Christ be the rest of the foundation if he is only described as being the Cornerstone.

He is NOT only described as the cornerstone. You're assuming what is in dispute. How convenient. Again, I named 7 overlapping roles that David assigned to the Lord. Here's another example:

"They drank [Living Water] from the spiritual Rock that accompanied them, and the Rock was Christ".

He is BOTH the Rock AND the Living Water AND the Living Bread that came down from heaven. Again, don't chastise Paul for placing Christ at the center and forefront of all things. Your issue is with Paul, not with me.

 

[JAL]

Your example uses bad grammar.

Again, show me a grammar book that so establishes. That's a standard role for the genitive - and even your own scholars did not deny that fact.

A construction company would never say they own a foundation (as you have written it), they would say they laid or built a foundation.

Where did I say they own a foundation? Are you lying (again)?

Where does Hoehner say other verses contradict cessationism? Or are lying again?

Um...extrapolation isn't lying. Uh..er..why does he "defend" his position by claiming that Paul suddenly changed his meaning/usage of "foundation"? Why would Hoehner bother to make that argument? OBVIOUSLY because the original definition flatly contradicts his cessationism. Let's be adults here - no need for dancing.

 

[JAL]

Isn't it ironic that you earlier made a big song and dance about how modern scholars agreed with you, when in actual fact you were wrong and that vast majority actually disagree with you. Before you were hailing these 'modern exegetes', but now we know the truth and that they actually disagree with you have nothing but disdain for them.

Isn't it ironic that you ignored the demonstrated insignificance of your imagined "victory".

 

[JAL]

Wrong. You are taking 1 Cor 14:31 out of context. Paul is not saying the whole of the Corinthian congregation was able to prophecy. The "all" in 1 Cor 14:31 is referring to the people mentioned in the previous 2 verses.

Except the CONTEXT begins at 14:1 addressed to the whole congregation.

1 Cor 12:29 makes it absolutely clear that not everyone has the same gift.

Already addressed. Talk about ignoring the context!

 

[JAL]

Wrong. A person was endowed with the gift of miracles because the Spirit determines they should have that gift, not because they are 'mature'.
1 Cor 12:11 "All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."

Um..er... and maturity is one of His criteria. See numbers 12:6-8.

Wrong. The Corinthians were spiritually immature, yet they abounded in gifts.

Logically impossible based on several facts indicated in the text. Nothing can be proven 100% exegetically but the point is that your conclusions flatly contradicts the available data in 1Corinthians. A fact I demonstrated in a previous thread...it was a series of about five posts - maybe when I get the chance I'll bring the links here.

 

[JAL]

Who are these cessationists that say the gifts ceased when "churchwide unity" was achieved in the early church? Don't tell me you're lying yet again. The only cessationist scholar I know that said something similar is Robert Thomas, and if it is he who you are referring to then you have grossly misrepresented him (not the first time you've done that). Thomas said the gifts would cease once a certain level of maturity was reached, and that step was achieved when the church had the completed canon.

You just confirmed exactly what I said. Why then do you classify me as a liar. Are you lying?

 

[JAL]

Right, so because the modern scholars don't agree with you, you accuse them all of using bad hermeneutics, something they are all thoroughly trained in and would cost them their jobs or severely damage their reputation if they got wrong. Yeah, sure.

Oh I don't just accuse them. I don't just hurl unfounded accusations (like some people on this forum are fond of doing), I actually ARGUE my case. I EXPOSE obvious fallacies in their reasonings. Here's a classic example:

"God is immutable but became man."

Huh?

Look, if you want to believe self-contradictory claims and silly arguments for cessationism - that's your prerogative. Nothing I can do about it.

 

[JAL]

Right, so because the modern scholars don't agree with you, you accuse them all of using bad hermeneutics, something they are all thoroughly trained in and would cost them their jobs or severely damage their reputation if they got wrong. Yeah, sure.

Your assessment here is 100% backwards. Cost them their jobs? Let me enlighten you on how it works. The people who lose their jobs (and/or their very lives) are the ones who buck the institution. Those who kiss up to it - even at the cost of bad hermeneutics - are the ones who KEEP their jobs. That's one reason it took 1500 years for the Reformation to introduce some positive changes.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

To help other believers understand what I said before in a previous post about how God can communicate to us without words:

Psalms 19:1 says,

1 “The heavens declare the glory of God;
and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech,
and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language,
where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.”​

Obviously the creation is not speaking literal words to us and yet they can still talk silently to us (if we are to believe Psalms 19:1-4).

The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament shows His handiwork. The beauty of a waterfall, a rainbow, a sunset all declare God's glory and His intelligent and wondrous design. Even wicked men (Who deny God's existence) are without excuse that there is a God because they deny the speech that the creation puts forth about God. “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:” (Romans 1:20).

Even our conscience is impressed by our Creator to know right from wrong. “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law,...” (Romans 2:14). Of course a person can sear their conscience in a bad way and cut themselves off in doing what they know to be good and true. But the point here is that our conscience can speak to us without any words. In fact, the Spirit can even help a person to be convicted of their sin. For it is written: “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:” (John 16:8). The Spirit convicts men of their sin because they are not believing in Jesus (See: John 16:9). But when we are convicted of our sin, no words were used. God did not say that we were in the wrong using audible words. We were convicted in our conscience that we knew that what we did was wrong. This then led us to openly run to Jesus and seek His forgiveness over our sins (Hebrews 4:16) (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:17-21) (Luke 18:9-14) (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9), and to believe the Holy Scriptures that say that Jesus died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Amazing grace. How sweet the sound.

In addition, Romans 8:16 says, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”

Meaning: God can speak to us by bearing witness with our spirit. For this is how we know that we are the children of God. How do we know that we are the children of God? Did God audibly tell us? Did He write it down for us personally involving our name? No. It is a form of communication without words just like how the creation declares the glory of God without the use of any actual real words.

 

[JAL]

Wrong. The Corinthians were spiritually immature, yet they abounded in gifts.

And I have a whole thread demonstrating that Paul defined maturity (coincided maturity rather) in terms of a proliferation of the gifts (consistent with Num 12:6-8). Since the Corinthians were immature, they did NOT proliferate in the gifts. Six key posts on that thread: Post 7, and Post 33, and Post 46, and Post 47, and post 52, and post 58. I'll even grant that the Corinthians featured in a full DIVERSITY of gifts (that's the nature of apostolic churches) - as an assembly they didn't LACK any of the gifts - but certainly did not have a superabundance of the gifts, defined in terms of frequency of manifestation, premium-grade Direct Revelation, and so on.

 

[JAL]

Wrong. The Corinthians were spiritually immature, yet they abounded in gifts.

And one more point. On that thread I cited cessationists scholars who admitted that Paul guaged maturity in terms of a proliferation of the gifts (wherefore the immature Corinthians did NOT abound in the gifts).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is written:

9 “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” (1 Corinthians 13:9-11).​

1 Corinthians 13 is saying that when the perfect is come then that which in part (i.e. revelatory knowledge, and prophecy) shall be done away. Prophesying in part is equated with being a child. The early church would have been a picture of the church being a child that would naturally grow and mature into adulthood.

Ephesians 4:13 equate attaining fullness of knowledge with becoming a perfect (i.e. mature or complete) man.

“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:” (Ephesians 4:13).​

This fulness of knowledge that we were given (i.e. our instructions here on this Earth) is the Holy Bible.

Praise the Lord!

 

[JAL]

To all:

To help other believers understand what I said before in a previous post about how God can communicate to us without words:

Psalms 19:1 says,

1 “The heavens declare the glory of God;
and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech,
and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language,
where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.”​

Obviously the creation is not speaking literal words to us and yet they can still talk silently to us (if we are to believe Psalms 19:1-4).

The creation is speaking to us? Look, you were created for a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. That means, in real time, the two of you intentionally exchange messages - you INTENTIONALLY speak. And if He conveys to us anything of specificity (i.e. specific guidance for our lives), it will issue in words, because - if for no other reason than convenience sake - we cogitate in terms of words. We can't help it, having been raised in linguistic cultures.

I suppose you could argue that he only conveys non-intellectual content such as love, joy, and peace but:
(1) That's kind of like having a pet. Plenty of affection, but no real communication.
(2) God would be negligent if He doesn't guide our lives.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

On what I said in regards to #475:
If one does not understand what I said with Scripture.
All I can say is:

“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” (Matthew 11:15).​

While there are many reasons why one may not understand, I believe one reason why some people do not understand what God's Word says is because they do not accept plainly the following verses: 1 Timothy 6:3-4, James 4:6, and 1 John 2:3-4.

Side Note:

Oh, and yes; I believe we all need to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but not everyone preaches the same Jesus as described in the Bible. Most prophecies, visions, etc. I have have heard turn out to preach another Jesus. Clearly books like Divine Revelation of Hell is a fraud, and visions like from Colton Burpo are clearly anti biblical.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is written:

9 “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” (1 Corinthians 13:9-11).​

1 Corinthians 13 is saying that when the perfect is come then that which in part (i.e. revelatory knowledge, and prophecy) shall be done away. Prophesying in part is equated with being a child. The early church would have been a picture of the church being a child that would naturally grow and mature into adulthood.

Ephesians 4:13 equate attaining fullness of knowledge with becoming a perfect (i.e. mature man).

“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:” (Ephesians 4:13).​

This fulness of knowledge that we were given (i.e. our instructions here on this Earth) is the Holy Bible.

Praise the Lord!

I wanted to add that if the early church is compared to like that of a child growing, then at some point the church will mature and grow into adulthood.

This adulthood would naturally be HERE upon this Earth and not in Heaven. God does not want us to remain as children. I don't think that God wants to be immature our entire lives here upon this Earth. While we need to have the heart of a child in being simple, and innocent, we are to grow and mature and put away childish things.
God obviously desires us to put away childish things here on this Earth and not in Heaven.

 

[Albion]

Um...that argument backfires and thus becomes a case for Continuationism. Some cesstionists argue (in a rather tortured exegesis of 1Cor 13:8-12):
(1) The gifts were given unto the aim of achieving churchwide maturity.
(2) That goal was eventually reached in the early church
(3) Therefore the gifts vanished from them.

Don't you see why it backfires?

No, but it may be important, so please elaborate.

Again, any NEW church planted today is beset with rampant immaturity. If the gifts automatically flourish as God's cure for immaturity, they would be flourishing all over the world today.

Oh no. There's no backfire in that. The first was about the whole church, not one of many local units. And there is no reason to talk as though some "immaturity" concerning a single congregation is the same thing as the need for getting Christ's church established and secure in a hostile world originally.

 

[Albion]

False.

Nope. The gifts--miraculous gifts--are enumerated in Corinthians...and being made a church leader is not among them.

What's more, it is obvious that although one may say that being a teacher is in accord with receiving a call and therefore is a "gift" in one sense of the word, it's not a miracle in the fashion claimed for the gifts that Pentecostals and Continuationists talk about--speaking in unknown tongues, receiving a word of knowledge, and etc.