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Convince me of Arminianism

FaithfulPilgrim

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Hi!

I have deeply studied both Calvinism and Arminianism and could never personally come to a conclusion myself. I believe it is a given that God must predestine things to a degree, though I don’t think he necessarily micromanages the universe or history.

I do find the Calvinist Perspective quite compelling, but I would like to debate with an Arminian to accurately hear their side and see if they can convince me of it.

Let’s start with grace. Resistible or irresistible, and why?
 

rockytopva

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The willingness of God is for all to be saved...

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

(God our Savior)... Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. - 1 Timothy 2:4-6

It is the responsibility of man to heed the call of God, which some did not do...

11 But ye are they that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not. - Isaiah 65


The race is to he who endures to the end... And there is the warning to those who give way to the temptations of the end time...

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. - Matthew 10:22
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Matthew 24:13
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. -Revelation 16:15
 
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HereIStand

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I'm essentially a 3-point Calvinist, holding to the T,L, and P in TULIP. As Augustine argued, God can place a person in the right environment so that he'll have the opportunity to hear the Gospel, and even incline the person to hear it. To receive the truth and believe it must be voluntary, and it can be resisted. This, as I believe I've heard argued, is the sense of Acts 9:5 in the KJV.
 
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fhansen

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Hi!

I have deeply studied both Calvinism and Arminianism and could never personally come to a conclusion myself. I believe it is a given that God must predestine things to a degree, though I don’t think he necessarily micromanages the universe or history.

I do find the Calvinist Perspective quite compelling, but I would like to debate with an Arminian to accurately hear their side and see if they can convince me of it.

Let’s start with grace. Resistible or irresistible, and why?
First of all, just from the standpoint of reason alone Calvinism makes little sense. Adam freely fell; this was a matter of the human will to begin with or else God would be in the position of telling Adam not to commit the sin that Adam did commit while wanting him to do so after all. But instead Adam opposed the will of God and committed an essentially evil act that God could not be the author of. The ability to do so is the essence of man's freedom. And the human will has been the focus, the prize so to speak, ever since.

Because if Calvinism is right, if salvation is nothing more than God regenerating a person without regard to their will, having already elected them to salvation, and failing to do so for the reprobate, then the entire history of the Fall of man and all the pain, suffering, struggle, and death that followed makes no sense whatsoever. God might as well have simply stocked heaven with the elect, and hell with the rest, from the beginning. He might as well have given Adam the grace not to sin and fall at all.

But if, instead, there was a reason for the Fall, if God allowed it knowing He could bring an even greater good out of it in the end, then the knowledge of evil, the experience of it, must play a role, a valuable one. And this experience allows man to gain the wisdom, in time, to change his mind about God, to change his will, even as revelation and grace are also necessary components in this change. So that, as grace precedes man's justification, establishing cooperation with man that he could not and would not achieve on his own, man can still say no to that grace and reject it. God's whole purpose is to draw man into justice rather than forcing him because man's state of justice depends in part on his willing it. God throws the life preserver without which man cannot possibly be saved and desires that man grab it, rather than forcing it upon him.

IOW, this world is a school where man can learn to hate and reject evil, to develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness, for God, and so come to run like Prodigals back to the the Father who's been standing there all along with open arms.

Man's will was never totally corrupted but rather weakened, compromised. Once the Original Sin was committed, man was lost, "dead", spiritually separated from his Creator. He can't find his way back, but he can remain lost if he continues to prefer that state, that path, which Adam set him on.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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The willingness of God is for all to be saved...







The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

(God our Savior)... Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. - 1 Timothy 2:4-6

It is the responsibility of man to heed the call of God, which some did not do...

11 But ye are they that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not. - Isaiah 65


The race is to he who endures to the end... And there is the warning to those who give way to the temptations of the end time...

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. - Matthew 10:22
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Matthew 24:13
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. -Revelation 16:15

Apparently not or all would be saved.

Jesus preached more about hell than he did regarding heaven.

M-Bob
 
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A_Thinker

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Apparently not or all would be saved.

Jesus preached more about hell than he did regarding heaven.

M-Bob

I don't think so, Bob ...

It's easy to check today, with electronic texts.

The last time I checked, Jesus talked about heaven many times more than He talked about hell. Which is, really, only to be expected.

Hint: There are some 200+ instances of Christ speaking of heaven.

"Verily, verily I say unto you ... the kingdom of heaven is like unto ... "
 
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Mountainmanbob

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I don't think so, Bob ...
The last time I checked, Jesus talked about heaven many times more than He talked about hell. Which is, really, only to be expected.

Hint: There are some 200+ instances of Christ speaking of heaven.

"Verily, verily I say unto you ... the kingdom of heaven is like unto ... "

Last time?
When was that?
MB


Did Jesus speak more about Hell than about Heaven?
 
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A_Thinker

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A_Thinker said: The last time I checked, Jesus talked about heaven many times more than He talked about hell. Which is, really, only to be expected.

Mountainmanbob said: Last time?

When was that?

MB

Did Jesus speak more about Hell than about Heaven?

About ten years ago ... on a christian forum much like this one.

I had heard the statement for years, ... and never once contradicted.

But it never really added up for me. So I did my own study.

And I'm asking this because it's not yet clear to me ...

Did you read the article you linked to ???
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Did you read the article you linked to ???

I looked through it. I for sure caught the quote from John MacArthur who I respect very much.
M-Bob
 
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A_Thinker

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I looked through it. I for sure caught the quote from John MacArthur who I respect very much.
M-Bob

So you are aware that the article contradicts this statement that I've heard minister after minister proclaim ... and that it found that Jesus spoke of heaven about three times as much as He spoke of hell ?
 
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Mountainmanbob

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and that it found that Jesus spoke of heaven about three times as much as He spoke of hell ?

Please just tell me that you do believe in hell and we're good.

I know some people here on this site think everybody goes to heaven man I would hate to put that by my pastor he would tell me I couldn't hang out here no more.

M-Bob
 
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klutedavid

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bling

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Hi!

I have deeply studied both Calvinism and Arminianism and could never personally come to a conclusion myself. I believe it is a given that God must predestine things to a degree, though I don’t think he necessarily micromanages the universe or history.

I do find the Calvinist Perspective quite compelling, but I would like to debate with an Arminian to accurately hear their side and see if they can convince me of it.

Let’s start with grace. Resistible or irresistible, and why?

Part of the reason people think grace is irresistible is because if you have making the first move to accepting Christ than they are “doing” something noble, honorable, worthy of something and deserving of something. We know sinful man does not yet have Godly type Love, so would act selfishly (worthlessly). Yet that is not what is happening and what does happen is very similar to the Prodigal son:

The prodigal son was brought to his senses by his terrible situation he got himself into. At that moment in the pigsty he could have been macho, taken the punishment he fully deserved, paid the piper, not thought of bothering his father again, and starved to death in the pigsty. But the young son wimped out, gave up on self, and surrendered. He left for purely selfish reasons (to at least have some kind of life and survive). He is not going to bring honor to the family by returning (the older brother seems aware of that) and that is not listed as his motive. All the glory and honor goes to the father.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Mountainmanbob

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DeaconDean

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Here is the biggest difference between Arminian theology and Calvinist theology.

You can go just about anywhere on the internet, and read or download it for yourself, the works of James Arminius.

100% of the Arminian/Remonstant theology, evolves around what man will or will not do.

Arminian theology admits the same as Calvinist theology, salvation is only found in Christ.

But that is where the two theologies separate.

Everything in "The Works of James Arminius" evolves around man. What he will, will not do, at a point in time.

Calvinism=God's Sovereignty

Arminianism=Mans free-will.

In a nutshell, that's it.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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God can be totally sovereign and still allow mature adults to have the limited free will they need to fulfill their earthly objective.

Do you realize that you are basically stating the Calvinist position?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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fhansen

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Do you realize that you are basically stating the Calvinist position?

God Bless

Till all are one.
But from my understanding Calvinism would deny the notion that man could reject the grace of salvation, believing that man is saved first, without being able to will otherwise.
 
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