Convert me :)

[razzelflabben]

Hi everyone,

I would really appreciate if you took the time to read this!

I was a Catholic; now I'm an atheist. The transition was slow, and it began when certain parts of Christianity began to shake my faith. For example, if non-believers end up in hell, as I had been taught in catechism class, how is that fair to people who have never even had the opportunity to be exposed religion?

I almost pasted you post because of the title. we don't convert anyone, conversion comes by the working of the HS within the person. But I did read it anyway and I hope I can add some clarity to some things that you apparently have either been taught wrong or didn't fully understand.

First question...about hell, before we begin let me point out to you that in the christian faith there are two "forms" of belief. 1. that of the religion of christianity. This is a belief of the mind or iow's what we are taught to believe. the 2. is the belief of the heart which is a relationship with God and is beyond the mind. What I will be speaking on in this post is that of belief of the heart or relationship with God which is what scripture says is the belief that saves us from sin and death (hell).

Now, your first question is about hell. Hell is a secondary teaching in scripture but has become a primary teaching in the church. Look at it this way, the church (small c meaning the religious) want to increase in numbers, they see the best way to do that is to scare people into belief. This trend is shifting but has been the core of the church (again small c) for many years. The new movement in the church to try to get new "believers" is to do away with hell and make everything okay. Neither is representative of the God of the Bible as given to us in the bible.

According to scripture, hell is nothing more than the consequence for our sins. IOW's, we sin therefore we die spiritually which is hell. End of story if Christ had not come to save us. But He did, so that all that is left is for us to accept His gift that pays the price of our sin. The OT gives us a very vivid and allegorical picture of what we are talking about here. Blood does NOT appease God, it pays our price for the sin we committed allowing us to live. IOW's it's the nature of the thing not some rule or law made up by God to mess with people on this earth. Thus, it is not God that send people to hell, but we send ourselves to hell.

But your question is about those that don't hear and it would be a valid point except that God already addressed it. God gave us a witness to who He is and even if no one tells us about God, we know Him or can know Him...I personally fit this category, but more about that later. Everything around us is calling us to a relationship with God, even this post is evidence of that. IF God were not calling you, you wouldn't even think about these things, much less ask about them. My husband was even telling me about a phenomenon in which every society even those that have never been told about the God of the Bible have some "religious" understanding that mirrors Christ. This is a witness to those that have never "heard" of the God of the Bible. For me personally, the witness was the world itself and it was an understanding of that world or how it came to existence that led me to Christ. It wasn't some mental understanding, but rather a heart that actually sought to know truth and the seeking after that truth led me to God, no man needed, God being God is big enough to lead us to Him if we simply seek to know Him with everything we are.

Why do people suffer so much if a Christian god actually exists?

let me start answering this question by asking you a question...why do people think suffering is evil or bad? Every day we see that suffering can and is a good thing, it is through suffering that we grow strong, look at our muscles as a perfect example. We suffer through the tearing down of our muscles so that they can be built up stronger. Likewise with man, we need to have our pride torn down so that humility can grow. Suffering isn't a bad thing, it is just part of life. But some suffering results in death and other evils you would most likely respond and you are again correct, some suffering is hard to fathom how it could "grow" us. Things like rape, murder, natural disasters, etc. how could they build us up especially when non believers could loss their life or turn from God. WEll, let's go back to the consequence of sin is death. The suffering that we see in the world, all of it, according to scripture is because we invited sin into our otherwise perfect world. The result of that invitation is that we are now in the process of dieing. You see, it wasn't God's purpose to create a world that allowed man to suffer, in fact, Adam and Eve didn't suffer at all, not even from mosquitoes and gnats, it wasn't until we invited sin in and asked God to leave our world that suffering existed and before you or anyone else tries to make an argument about it being Adam and Eve's fault, each and everyone of us sins, that means we are asking sin and death to remain part of our world. IOW's every single time you sin, you are inviting sin and the suffering associated with it to remain a part of our world and asking God to stay out of our world. That is why Christ came to break the power of sin and death, rather than to "keep us out of hell". If you want, I will find the passage for you.

And what's the deal with the homophobia? I have been told god loves all his creations - if he does, his actions don't always show it.

I don't understand this question at all, how does homophobia result in your claim here? I'm totally confused but I will try my best to answer what I think you are asking.
1. homophobia is a man made issue and is not present in the life of a person who is allowing God to rule over them, iow's heart knowledge and submission to His authority and power, that is, breaking the power of sin and death.
2. Love is a topic I study a lot as per Biblical Love. As such I can assure you that God loves the homosexual and so does every believer who is living out Christ which is the goal of the believer, to imitate Christ, that is become like HIm. In fact, the sin of homosexuality is no different than any other sin. First, it is a sin that leads to death, second, like with heterorsexuality or any other sexual orientation it isn't the "feeling or emotion or desire" that is bad or evil or sin but rather what we do with those things. For example the heterosexual can sin even though they are heterosexual. They decide whether or not they give into the sinful desires that rage in all mankind. The homosexual is no different, in fact, the only difference is the sin that is calling them. Personally, I see homosexuality as a gift from God in which the person who is homosexual is being asked to experience God and the self control that He gives us in a very powerful way. You see, we need to learn to live in the gifts God gives us and one of those gifts is self control. What better way to learn to live in that gift then to be asked to control our sexual desires?

Anyway, these questions troubled me so much that I went on to pursue the truth. My faith disappeared pretty quickly after I began to do some research online. At first, I was uncomfortable with the idea that there may not be a god, now, I am uncomfortable with the idea of there being one. In my eyes, the idea of nothingness after death makes life infinitely more precious. Conversely, the idea of my fate being in the hands of a god who watches me constantly and dictates how I live my life lest I spend the afterlife in eternal suffering - that is not so appealing.

The real beauty of God is not in life or death, heaven or hell but in Him. In His presence we begin to understand that the real meaning of Christ is not about us at all, not about heaven or hell or where I will spend eternity, it isn't even about disappearing from the face of the earth. The real beauty of God is in His being, it is His Love, His grace, His Spirit, His holiness, HIs....
You appear to have been taught that God is about you, that is your entire understanding of God is centered around you and what you can get from God. Scripture teaches that our understanding needs to grow beyond ourselves into who God is. I have adviced many people who are searching to "date" God rather than to see God for what we can gain. IOW's instead of focusing on who you think God is and how just or unjust He is in your mind, take time to just get to know Him. Look only at His attributes for awhile. What does God is Love mean? What does God is just mean? Holy? Good FAther? etc. By the time you finish looking at who God is, you will have different vision for the things you have been taught to believe about HIm, guaranteed.

You identify as Christians because you came upon Christianity or because you were raised in it. Had you been born elsewhere, you might be a Muslim or a Buddhist. What grounds do you have for asserting that Christianity is the "correct" religion?

When I was about 6, my life was so out of control that I was looking for a way to kill myself. My family occasionally (I was told, I have no memory of it) went to church, as in once or twice a year. It was not something that was taught. Anyway, one night as I tried to figure out how to kill myself, I looked at the world around me and decided that this world could not just happen. If it couldn't just happen there needed to be a creator. If a creator then that creator wouldn't make anything greater than he/He/she/them/they. If nothing greater than all I needed to survive was to become part of that creator being. That night I prayed to a God I didn't know, a God I didn't have any knowledge of and said this, "If I am right, creator, become so much a part of me that it is impossible to know where you begin and I end." That is when God stepped in and began to reveal Himself to me and teach me about the God of the bible.

Now, my situation didn't change, I was still facing down abuse and to make matters worse, I broke a stronghold in my family that resulted in nightly demonic visitation, but years later, late middle school early high school, I was sitting sewing. My sister came in and laid on my shoulder. I asked her to move, she refused, I told her to move, she refused so I took hold of her arms and set her off of me. She went crying to my father that I had scratched her and showed him a wound that was healing. My father went nuts, took off his belt and began to beat me. From an outsider looking in, you would have sworn I got the beating of my life and yet I never once felt it's sting nor were there marks from it. That day, Christ literally stood between me and that beating. In those moments of realization, I looked back over my life and realized that God had done the impossible....not only did He take a 6 year old kid that wanted to die rather than stay in my situation and keep me alive, but I was thriving. Sin, even the sin that others were doing to me, had lost it's hold, Christ did what He promised, He broke the power of sin and death in my life. There is no greater evidence in the entire world than the change within a man that gives himself wholly to the Lord of Lords and King of Kings. But to do that, one must seek God with all that he is, yielding to HIs call so that every part of the man is touched by the hand of God. It happens when we lay down the God we are taught He is and take up the knowledge and Love for the God that He really is.

Furthermore, I do think that belief is not a choice. My beliefs are shaped by my environment, and of course by the subconscious functions of my mind. I can't just decide to believe in god if I don't actually believe. Can you "just decide" to believe in unicorns? My beliefs would shift only if I were offered evidence or a compelling argument.
SO, can anyone offer a non-believer any compelling arguments/evidence for God or for religion?
I've heard all the compelling atheist arguments, now I think it is only fair I hear the Christian side of things too.
I look forward to reading what anyone has to say!

Belief unto salvation is NOT a belief of the mind. A mind that cannot choose beyond the experiences. It IS a belief of the heart which is a decision. Consider the difference between "I belief the cake is good" and "I believe that based on the ingredients of the cake that it will taste delicious" One is a head knowledge, it is a choice of what you think may or may not be true...the other is a matter of the will and will help to enhance the taste of the cake. Belief unto salvation is a matter of the will. That does not mean there is no mental activity involved in fact, some people believe with the heart based on what the mind tells them, but it isn't just a mental assertion of what one is taught which is why your first question isn't a problem. You see, if it was only a mental assertion then those that didn't get taught would have an excuse. Rather it is a matter of the will, the heart, which removes the problem with no hearing as I spoke of in my own life. Now, it becomes merely a matter of being determined to know truth wherever it might lead and believing in and trusting that truth no matter the cost.

 

[razzelflabben]

According to Muslims there is life in Allah. Who, then, is right?
I am looking for reason-based arguments only please.

what evidence do you have that there is life in Allah? Verses evidence we have that there is life in God? I know that much of it is anecdotal, but it is evidence none the less. Then after the testimony, look at the teachings. One of many reasons I reject Allah as being worthy of my worship is the man that is upheld as the perfect example of a good Muslim. This is evidence that we dare not dismiss in our quest for truth....what life does Allah promise? How is that life to be lived out? Is that life something you would want?

 

[Albion]

Hi everyone,

I would really appreciate if you took the time to read this!

I was a Catholic; now I'm an atheist. The transition was slow, and it began when certain parts of Christianity began to shake my faith. For example, if non-believers end up in hell, as I had been taught in catechism class, how is that fair to people who have never even had the opportunity to be exposed religion? Why do people suffer so much if a Christian god actually exists? And what's the deal with the homophobia? I have been told god loves all his creations - if he does, his actions don't always show it.

Anyway, these questions troubled me so much that I went on to pursue the truth. My faith disappeared pretty quickly after I began to do some research online. At first, I was uncomfortable with the idea that there may not be a god, now, I am uncomfortable with the idea of there being one. In my eyes, the idea of nothingness after death makes life infinitely more precious. Conversely, the idea of my fate being in the hands of a god who watches me constantly and dictates how I live my life lest I spend the afterlife in eternal suffering - that is not so appealing.

You identify as Christians because you came upon Christianity or because you were raised in it. Had you been born elsewhere, you might be a Muslim or a Buddhist. What grounds do you have for asserting that Christianity is the "correct" religion?

Furthermore, I do think that belief is not a choice. My beliefs are shaped by my environment, and of course by the subconscious functions of my mind. I can't just decide to believe in god if I don't actually believe. Can you "just decide" to believe in unicorns? My beliefs would shift only if I were offered evidence or a compelling argument.
SO, can anyone offer a non-believer any compelling arguments/evidence for God or for religion?
I've heard all the compelling atheist arguments, now I think it is only fair I hear the Christian side of things too.
I look forward to reading what anyone has to say!

There are answers--and relatively easy ones--for all the questions and points you've brought up. The response to your more general appeal ("Convert me") ought not to be a few quick words by us on a discussion board but, rather, a sincere suggestion that you explore the faith more closely.

Do not assume that the first doubts (which everyone has at one time or another) settle the matter. You wouldn't do that if we were talking about war and peace or medical treatments, etc., so it's not a good idea to approach the subject of religion too simplistically, either.

 

[Dana Fitzpatrick]

Many good points made above, and I also thank the posters for their graceful contributions. I also agree that the answers given in God's Word are freely available for those who seek and are willing to accept them. If you seek evidence, it has already been given. Your acceptance of these examples as evidence are entirely up to you and your worldview. Should you wish to weigh your options for belief, my earnest suggestion is for you to educate yourself thoroughly concerning all of them.

Philosophy would be a great place to start. Consider that any path you choose requires a belief of some sort in something you cannot prove. Do you believe that insufficient evidence has been presented for the existence of God? Consider, then, that the signature of an intelligent creator has been printed on every one of your cells and in your very mind. If chance and randomness created you, why then can we depend on consistency and predictability in our observations? If we can only prove that which we can sense, where do numbers and arithmetic come from? Neither are concrete and any proof presupposes their existence. Can you prove your own thoughts and emotions? How did atoms and chemical processes combine to create the very intelligence required of you to even ask the question? Are you a brain or a mind? If you are a brain, then how is it you either are or are not when your brain can function in percentages? Scientists describe what they see, and science is not in contest with the bible. God explains.

If philosophy is not your pursuit, try history. The existence of Christ is considered fact among authorities of ancient texts. He lived, was crucified, died, and His friends as well as enemies believe strongly that He was raised from the dead. You will have great difficulty finding any active university professor whose specialty is ancient history denying any of these facts. There are a very limited number of explanations available to satisfy all four elements.

If you don't like history, try morality. What is right and wrong? Is right whatever you decide it is? Then right is whatever I decide also. I decide that it's OK to cut babies into little pieces. I would venture to guess that if you think it's also OK you don't need education; you need therapy. If there is no absolute right or wrong, then I get to be in front of you in line because that's what's good for me. If there are absolute rights and wrongs, then someone must have made them from the beginning.

I could go on, but my point is that evidence already exists. Evidence doesn't convince; otherwise Judas would not have betrayed Jesus. I doubt any Christian here believes just because the universe is such an awesome place that someone must have created it. What you seek is not evidence. You seek an audience. So did Job. However, he never cursed God and still got put in his place. God will meet you where you are, but He gave all. What are you giving? How much skin do you have in the game?

 

[razzelflabben]

And because you prefer Jesus to Muhammad, that makes Jesus' word truth? Just because something is more desirable to you, doesn't mean it is the truth. In fact, not all of Christianity is "love". Jesus certainly did great things, but let's not forget God (whether or not you believe they are the same, they are still parts of Christianity), who murdered entire populations and commanded people to kill in the old testament. Although Islam is currently the world's most violent religion, I would argue that it was once Christianity that was the most violent. But again, these points do not prove or disprove a religion's validity.

From a historical perspective, the God pictured in the OT of being a murderer is mild compared to the other religious beliefs of the day.

But back to point. One of the things you are missing in this argument is the why God was a "murderer"...let's take one of the most common examples as an illustration so as not to get things off topic. God of the OT ordered the murder of innocent woman and children. When we look at the text however, we see that the reason for that was so that the people did not draw the Israelites away from God. IOW"s in God's perspective He was protecting HIs children from rapists, murderers, kidnappers. By contrast, He was protecting them from rapists, murderers, kidnappers like those of Moloch who were religious people who were known from rolling their first born children down a shoot into a fire to be burned alive in worship of their god. The cries of the children so loud that they had to drown out the sound in order to keep up the practices.

Now, most people have no problem with a father who kills someone trying to harm his children, but when it comes to God we get all upset and angry and call HIm all sorts of names. How is it more human to allow His children to be drug into a religion that roll their first born children into fires to be burned alive? IT is important to understand God's perspective whether you agree with the perspective or not.

 

[Dana Fitzpatrick]

...and in a worldview without the existence of God, why would it be wrong to kill the people occupying the territory that would be better served by your own people?

 

[Colter]

Hi everyone,

I would really appreciate if you took the time to read this!

I was a Catholic; now I'm an atheist. The transition was slow, and it began when certain parts of Christianity began to shake my faith. For example, if non-believers end up in hell, as I had been taught in catechism class, how is that fair to people who have never even had the opportunity to be exposed religion? Why do people suffer so much if a Christian god actually exists? And what's the deal with the homophobia? I have been told god loves all his creations - if he does, his actions don't always show it.

Anyway, these questions troubled me so much that I went on to pursue the truth. My faith disappeared pretty quickly after I began to do some research online. At first, I was uncomfortable with the idea that there may not be a god, now, I am uncomfortable with the idea of there being one. In my eyes, the idea of nothingness after death makes life infinitely more precious. Conversely, the idea of my fate being in the hands of a god who watches me constantly and dictates how I live my life lest I spend the afterlife in eternal suffering - that is not so appealing.

You identify as Christians because you came upon Christianity or because you were raised in it. Had you been born elsewhere, you might be a Muslim or a Buddhist. What grounds do you have for asserting that Christianity is the "correct" religion?

Furthermore, I do think that belief is not a choice. My beliefs are shaped by my environment, and of course by the subconscious functions of my mind. I can't just decide to believe in god if I don't actually believe. Can you "just decide" to believe in unicorns? My beliefs would shift only if I were offered evidence or a compelling argument.
SO, can anyone offer a non-believer any compelling arguments/evidence for God or for religion?
I've heard all the compelling atheist arguments, now I think it is only fair I hear the Christian side of things too.
I look forward to reading what anyone has to say!

Hi, I'm a disciple of Jesus and his original, pre-cross gospel. But I agree with your observations. I believe the Bible was written by holy men, some more holy than others, with various agendas in different ages, then edited and redacted further by holy men with still more diverse agendas. Christianity is a religion about Jesus, not necessarily the religion of Jesus. The religion of Jesus was spiritual, generic and could have improved many religions in the world towards a more unified co-existence, but unfortunately things changed after Jesus left. Fragmented Christianity is sect divided, as you say, one can see just how Christians treat each other on this forum.

Honestly though, I doubt there is anything I can say that will penetrate your heart. But religion does work to preserve values and if you think for a moment, you have a mind conscious of values, consistency and reason. That's why the inconsistency of religious dogma and religious people offends your sincere sensibilities. The reason for your consciousness and discernment is because you are yourself a child of the Living God, a fair and loving God, a good God. He is within you. So you don't need me to convince you of my concept of God, you already have one. Follow it, grow with it, let it continue to guide your conscience. If then you seek this God within your heart you will have already found him.

 

[W Ed]

According to Muslims there is life in Allah. Who, then, is right?
I am looking for reason-based arguments only please.

I am not Muslim but contrary to popular belief, Allah really does mean God, the same God of the Hebrews. They come from the same root... Abraham who is the father of faith.

Christianity sprung from the same roots... Jesus is the fulfillment of all things.

Putting that aside, have you ever had an encounter with God? I challenge you to go into sincere prayer and simply say... "I don't believe that God exists... but God if you do exist, reveal yourself to me. If Jesus is your Son who died for me, reveal yourself to me." You actually have nothing to lose.

 

[graceandpeace]

Before I respond, it's worth mentioning that Christianity is a very diverse religion, with several different denominations & viewpoints. Christians typically agree on a few basic beliefs, but positions on various topics can vary. This site skews toward/favors conservative & evangelical Protestant views. I'm responding with my own opinions as a Mainline Protestant-Catholic (Episcopalian) who leans progressive.

The transition was slow, and it began when certain parts of Christianity began to shake my faith. For example, if non-believers end up in hell, as I had been taught in catechism class, how is that fair to people who have never even had the opportunity to be exposed religion?

Many Christians believe that those of other religions/no religion, or those who are unfamiliar with Jesus, may still be redeemed by God in the end.

Further, Christians disagree about what "hell" is. I don't believe in "eternal torment," but I do think from the Gospels one could draw the conclusion that Jesus believed in some sort of possible exclusion from God. What that looks like - or how long it would last - is the subject of Christian debate.

Why do people suffer so much if a Christian god actually exists?

This is a hard question. Many Christians will point to free-will, that humans are free to make their own choices regardless of the consequences. Others will point to the "fall of man" story in the Adam/Eve myth as an explanation of sorts: that sin entered the world, & it continues to affect not only humans, but even also the environment, the cosmos. Many believe in some sort of combination of the two points above. I think at the end of the day, God is love, but not a tyrant programmer, & therefore we must be somewhat free, even if our choices inflict evil.

And what's the deal with the homophobia? I have been told god loves all his creations - if he does, his actions don't always show it.

I think God does love everyone, gay people included. The debate for Christians mainly centers around whether gay persons can be affirmed along with their potential relationships, families - or whether any form of same-sex attraction or relationship is sinful. Currently, there are a number of church denominations (mine included) that accepts gay persons. Others are still wrestling with how to move forward, while others are settled on their views.

Anyway, these questions troubled me so much that I went on to pursue the truth. My faith disappeared pretty quickly after I began to do some research online. At first, I was uncomfortable with the idea that there may not be a god, now, I am uncomfortable with the idea of there being one. In my eyes, the idea of nothingness after death makes life infinitely more precious. Conversely, the idea of my fate being in the hands of a god who watches me constantly and dictates how I live my life lest I spend the afterlife in eternal suffering - that is not so appealing.

Many Christians would also reject this caricature of God.

You identify as Christians because you came upon Christianity or because you were raised in it. Had you been born elsewhere, you might be a Muslim or a Buddhist. What grounds do you have for asserting that Christianity is the "correct" religion?

That's true, & as noted earlier not many Christians would say all persons of other religions, etc are hopeless.

I don't spend much time trying to convince others my religion is the "correct" one. I don't really think that's what Jesus had in mind. He spends far more time in the Gospels talking about the Kingdom of God, & we are invited to participate in bringing that about here, now.

Furthermore, I do think that belief is not a choice. My beliefs are shaped by my environment, and of course by the subconscious functions of my mind. I can't just decide to believe in god if I don't actually believe. Can you "just decide" to believe in unicorns? My beliefs would shift only if I were offered evidence or a compelling argument.
SO, can anyone offer a non-believer any compelling arguments/evidence for God or for religion?
I've heard all the compelling atheist arguments, now I think it is only fair I hear the Christian side of things too.
I look forward to reading what anyone has to say!

I think it depends on what you accept as "evidence." I don't think there is "proof" for God, so I don't really engage in trying to convince others.

Instead, if someone wants to know, I share what causes me to believe. The beauty & mystery of the earth, the universe, inspires me to consider the possibility of God. The message of Jesus - healing, redemption, newness in the realized Kingdom of God - makes sense to me & gives me hope when I consider the failings & sufferings around me, within me.

I doubt. All the time. But what I've learned to accept is that my feelings or sense of belief isn't really important. What matters is how I choose to live in light of Jesus. Sometimes it's taking the steps forward even before there is faith that helps to make things clear.

 

[Root of Jesse]

And because you prefer Jesus to Muhammad, that makes Jesus' word truth? Just because something is more desirable to you, doesn't mean it is the truth. In fact, not all of Christianity is "love". Jesus certainly did great things, but let's not forget God (whether or not you believe they are the same, they are still parts of Christianity), who murdered entire populations and commanded people to kill in the old testament. Although Islam is currently the world's most violent religion, I would argue that it was once Christianity that was the most violent. But again, these points do not prove or disprove a religion's validity.

So do you want to start by discussing the existence of God, or do you want to argue about violence in the name of religion?

 

[Leevo]

Hi everyone,

I would really appreciate if you took the time to read this!

I was a Catholic; now I'm an atheist. The transition was slow, and it began when certain parts of Christianity began to shake my faith. For example, if non-believers end up in hell, as I had been taught in catechism class, how is that fair to people who have never even had the opportunity to be exposed religion? Why do people suffer so much if a Christian god actually exists? And what's the deal with the homophobia? I have been told god loves all his creations - if he does, his actions don't always show it.

The Catholic church teaches now that ultimately it is up to God who can and can not be saved. It is He, and He alone who gets to make the call... Don't confuse this with Calvinism though. The invitation is open to all. The Church (Roman Catholic Church) as far as my understanding goes, teaches that Non-believers who had never heard the Gospel, ultimately could end up saved by following their consciences, even atheists. However, we cannot dictate one way or the other.

As for homosexuality, your use of the term "homophobia" shows an ignorance of sorts, no offence. Most Atheists and Liberals, shout "homophobia!" when anyone comes up with a contrary viewpoint to what is pushed by their agenda (not accusing you of doing this, just saying that the term is heavily associated with that). So, why do we say homosexuality is a sin? Because it is. The Bible, which for Christians, is the infallible Word of God, says it is very clearly in several places. However it is not the only sin. There is a huge list of them and none of us are sin free. We all need to repent and turn from our sin. For homosexuals, that means not practicing. For heterosexuals, that means no sex prior to marriage. Pre-marital sex is one of the most common sexual sins, and people need to repent of that just as much as homosexuals need to repent of gay sex.

Anyway, these questions troubled me so much that I went on to pursue the truth. My faith disappeared pretty quickly after I began to do some research online. At first, I was uncomfortable with the idea that there may not be a god, now, I am uncomfortable with the idea of there being one. In my eyes, the idea of nothingness after death makes life infinitely more precious. Conversely, the idea of my fate being in the hands of a god who watches me constantly and dictates how I live my life lest I spend the afterlife in eternal suffering - that is not so appealing.

You identify as Christians because you came upon Christianity or because you were raised in it. Had you been born elsewhere, you might be a Muslim or a Buddhist. What grounds do you have for asserting that Christianity is the "correct" religion?

This arguments are the most difficult to discuss, and I will let people smarter than I try and help you here. I can however, recommend that you look up and watch a man by the name of William Lane Craig. He has many videos that delve into the Christian claims to truth and about Jesus. And even many about the existence of God. Using some of the most convincing arguments that I have seen put forth.

Furthermore, I do think that belief is not a choice. My beliefs are shaped by my environment, and of course by the subconscious functions of my mind. I can't just decide to believe in god if I don't actually believe. Can you "just decide" to believe in unicorns? My beliefs would shift only if I were offered evidence or a compelling argument.
SO, can anyone offer a non-believer any compelling arguments/evidence for God or for religion?
I've heard all the compelling atheist arguments, now I think it is only fair I hear the Christian side of things too.
I look forward to reading what anyone has to say!

That is true to an extent. First, faith is something that is deeply personal, not that it should be kept only to yourself, but that it is something that you have to experience for yourself. If you seek God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, you will find Him. Now as for evidence, again William Lane Craig is your guy.

 

[Noxot]

Hi everyone,

I would really appreciate if you took the time to read this!

I was a Catholic; now I'm an atheist. The transition was slow, and it began when certain parts of Christianity began to shake my faith. For example, if non-believers end up in hell, as I had been taught in catechism class, how is that fair to people who have never even had the opportunity to be exposed religion? Why do people suffer so much if a Christian god actually exists? And what's the deal with the homophobia? I have been told god loves all his creations - if he does, his actions don't always show it.

Anyway, these questions troubled me so much that I went on to pursue the truth. My faith disappeared pretty quickly after I began to do some research online. At first, I was uncomfortable with the idea that there may not be a god, now, I am uncomfortable with the idea of there being one. In my eyes, the idea of nothingness after death makes life infinitely more precious. Conversely, the idea of my fate being in the hands of a god who watches me constantly and dictates how I live my life lest I spend the afterlife in eternal suffering - that is not so appealing.

You identify as Christians because you came upon Christianity or because you were raised in it. Had you been born elsewhere, you might be a Muslim or a Buddhist. What grounds do you have for asserting that Christianity is the "correct" religion?

Furthermore, I do think that belief is not a choice. My beliefs are shaped by my environment, and of course by the subconscious functions of my mind. I can't just decide to believe in god if I don't actually believe. Can you "just decide" to believe in unicorns? My beliefs would shift only if I were offered evidence or a compelling argument.
SO, can anyone offer a non-believer any compelling arguments/evidence for God or for religion?
I've heard all the compelling atheist arguments, now I think it is only fair I hear the Christian side of things too.
I look forward to reading what anyone has to say!

heaven and hell are states of being. to exist forever under an authoritative kingly figure is just how Judaism and also Christianity can sometimes be due to peoples perceptions only being able to accept such. especially the Catholic church has a strange concept of what 'authority' means and they are one of the groups who believe in the concept of 'authority' the most but it is not really refined to a heavenly degree and so it tends to taste like dirt. all humans know God depending on the perceptions/wisdom and love/desires. God sets angels over very many things including all religions and they always direct humans to God as much as people allow them to which in all the different religious traditions you can find people who are near to God. this short video explains what heaven and hell are:

 

[rockytopva]

This would be my best try...

 

[Hammster]

ADMIN HAT ON


I just did a big clean up. This is a no debate area. And the only non-Christians who can post are the OP's. Also, you may only respond to the OP, not to the other responders.


ADMIN HAT OFF

 

[Hawkins]

Hi everyone,

I would really appreciate if you took the time to read this!

I was a Catholic; now I'm an atheist. The transition was slow, and it began when certain parts of Christianity began to shake my faith. For example, if non-believers end up in hell, as I had been taught in catechism class, how is that fair to people who have never even had the opportunity to be exposed religion? Why do people suffer so much if a Christian god actually exists? And what's the deal with the homophobia? I have been told god loves all his creations - if he does, his actions don't always show it.

Anyway, these questions troubled me so much that I went on to pursue the truth. My faith disappeared pretty quickly after I began to do some research online. At first, I was uncomfortable with the idea that there may not be a god, now, I am uncomfortable with the idea of there being one. In my eyes, the idea of nothingness after death makes life infinitely more precious. Conversely, the idea of my fate being in the hands of a god who watches me constantly and dictates how I live my life lest I spend the afterlife in eternal suffering - that is not so appealing.

You identify as Christians because you came upon Christianity or because you were raised in it. Had you been born elsewhere, you might be a Muslim or a Buddhist. What grounds do you have for asserting that Christianity is the "correct" religion?

Furthermore, I do think that belief is not a choice. My beliefs are shaped by my environment, and of course by the subconscious functions of my mind. I can't just decide to believe in god if I don't actually believe. Can you "just decide" to believe in unicorns? My beliefs would shift only if I were offered evidence or a compelling argument.
SO, can anyone offer a non-believer any compelling arguments/evidence for God or for religion?
I've heard all the compelling atheist arguments, now I think it is only fair I hear the Christian side of things too.
I look forward to reading what anyone has to say!

To me, you don't know what you are talking about.

Since when you have the evidence when you choose to believe what the daily news broadcast by the media?
Since when you have the evidence before believing what is said in a history book?

Or

Show us the evidence you acquired for the existence, say, of black holes.


Here you have shaped an ideal which is completely not how our reality works. Humans in this very reality seldom rely on evidence to get to a truth. They rely on evaluating the reliability of the sources then to believe with faith what come out of those sources.

You don't have the evidence that black holes exist, all you have is the faith that what the scientists said is correct! It is because you consider that the scientists as a source is reliable.

You are going no where if you don't get this corrected.

 

[John Davidson]

Hi everyone,

I would really appreciate if you took the time to read this!

I was a Catholic; now I'm an atheist. The transition was slow, and it began when certain parts of Christianity began to shake my faith. For example, if non-believers end up in hell, as I had been taught in catechism class, how is that fair to people who have never even had the opportunity to be exposed religion? Why do people suffer so much if a Christian god actually exists? And what's the deal with the homophobia? I have been told god loves all his creations - if he does, his actions don't always show it.

Anyway, these questions troubled me so much that I went on to pursue the truth. My faith disappeared pretty quickly after I began to do some research online. At first, I was uncomfortable with the idea that there may not be a god, now, I am uncomfortable with the idea of there being one. In my eyes, the idea of nothingness after death makes life infinitely more precious. Conversely, the idea of my fate being in the hands of a god who watches me constantly and dictates how I live my life lest I spend the afterlife in eternal suffering - that is not so appealing.

You identify as Christians because you came upon Christianity or because you were raised in it. Had you been born elsewhere, you might be a Muslim or a Buddhist. What grounds do you have for asserting that Christianity is the "correct" religion?

Furthermore, I do think that belief is not a choice. My beliefs are shaped by my environment, and of course by the subconscious functions of my mind. I can't just decide to believe in god if I don't actually believe. Can you "just decide" to believe in unicorns? My beliefs would shift only if I were offered evidence or a compelling argument.
SO, can anyone offer a non-believer any compelling arguments/evidence for God or for religion?
I've heard all the compelling atheist arguments, now I think it is only fair I hear the Christian side of things too.
I look forward to reading what anyone has to say!

I recommend you read these books:

http://www.christianbook.com/darwin...Ntt=99251&item_code=&Ntk=keywords&event=ESRCP


http://www.christianbook.com/guard-...tt=412991&item_code=&Ntk=keywords&event=ESRCP

 

[Deadworm]

zg, the crucial question is the proper starting point(s). But how might you determine that? Well, you have a philosophical/scientific bent and therein lies the trap for any who might want you to experience the joy of a truly empowering faith. The trap consists of questions you or any skeptic might pose that serve as bait. Suppose we take the bait and provide a fresh vision of the Christian faith whose appeal takes you by surprise as intrinsically plausible in a new way. All that would achieve is to create a more genuine openness to what really matters. But a new openness might actually erect a new barrier disguised as intellectual respectability--a cerebral orientation that actually thwarts a life-changing God encounter. What really matters is far more mystical in a way that involves "higher emotions." A more mystical mindset can best open the door to what can best be described as a divine ambush--a shattering encounter with Christ (or the Holy Spirit, if you will) that rather abruptly makes an evolving divine relationship your top priority. It was such an ambush at age 16 that thrust me on the path to seminary and doctoral work in biblical studies. Yet God did not tell me what I wanted to hear. I wanted answers to crippling issues that challenge biblical authority. Instead, what God told me is that the answers I craved were not beneficial to my spiritual development because I need to live from the heart more than from the head. God in effect told me with great clarity: "Just live the big questions until they lead you to the center of my heart." So I became a professional theology student for many years. But the mystical experiences along the journey, not fresh academic insight, made all the difference.

That said, I'm prepared to offer you original answers to the questions you posed. So stay tuned for future replies. But first, I encourage you to explore and eveb reoly to my threads in the Christian Apologetics, Praise, and Spiritual Gifts sections, because they are designed for a seeker just like you.

 

[expos4ever]

What grounds do you have for asserting that Christianity is the "correct" religion?

Based on your post, it seems to me that you may have been exposed to a caricature of what I see as the essential elements of Christians belief. So no wonder you became disillusioned. Here are some thoughts of mine re why I embrace Christianity:

1. Properly understood (as I see things, of course), the Old and New Testaments present a narrative about a God who is at work in the world to redeem it from sin, pain, death, and suffering. This God is also in the business of bringing about restorative justice. Seen this way, any reasonable person would want this narrative to be true. Of course, I recognize that wanting it to be true does not make it actually true; all I want to point out is that the narrative (as I understand it) is highly attractive (to me, at least and I would think to any reasonably sane person).

2. The narrative is rich, complex, and coherent. And perhaps most importantly, the twists and turns the narrative takes, while indeed coherent, are exceedingly strange (surprising). To me, this is somewhat compelling evidence that a "guiding hand" is at work over the centuries the whole story was composed. Stated crudely, it does not seem all that likely that such a coherent, yet at the same time surprising, story was invented in the minds of a set of different authors.

3. Closely related to point 2: The story of Jesus' resurrection is a prime example of what I am talking about in point 2. Without getting into the details in this post, I put it to you that the bodily resurrection of Jesus is not something any reasonable person would have expected and therefore have fabricated. And yet it both makes incredibly good, albeit exceedingly surprising, sense in the overall narrative. Plus, I believe the historians will tells us that all the early Christians embraced the truth of this event that is so hard to imagine having invented. To me, this at least suggests it really did happen.

Perhaps more later.

 

[Shadowprophet]

Hi everyone,

I would really appreciate if you took the time to read this!

I was a Catholic; now I'm an atheist. The transition was slow, and it began when certain parts of Christianity began to shake my faith. For example, if non-believers end up in hell, as I had been taught in catechism class, how is that fair to people who have never even had the opportunity to be exposed religion? Why do people suffer so much if a Christian god actually exists? And what's the deal with the homophobia? I have been told god loves all his creations - if he does, his actions don't always show it.

Anyway, these questions troubled me so much that I went on to pursue the truth. My faith disappeared pretty quickly after I began to do some research online. At first, I was uncomfortable with the idea that there may not be a god, now, I am uncomfortable with the idea of there being one. In my eyes, the idea of nothingness after death makes life infinitely more precious. Conversely, the idea of my fate being in the hands of a god who watches me constantly and dictates how I live my life lest I spend the afterlife in eternal suffering - that is not so appealing.

You identify as Christians because you came upon Christianity or because you were raised in it. Had you been born elsewhere, you might be a Muslim or a Buddhist. What grounds do you have for asserting that Christianity is the "correct" religion?

Furthermore, I do think that belief is not a choice. My beliefs are shaped by my environment, and of course by the subconscious functions of my mind. I can't just decide to believe in god if I don't actually believe. Can you "just decide" to believe in unicorns? My beliefs would shift only if I were offered evidence or a compelling argument.
SO, can anyone offer a non-believer any compelling arguments/evidence for God or for religion?
I've heard all the compelling atheist arguments, now I think it is only fair I hear the Christian side of things too.
I look forward to reading what anyone has to say!

This world was not a promised paradise, We were born into corruption and sin, Pain and suffering. This world is not about God solving all of our problems, We will sometimes suffer pain and loss, The book of Job illustrates this point well, Think of this, There were many people in the past who have suffered and died because of sickness and plagues, and then there is free will,, There are people out there with intent to harm others. This life is about growing spiritually and becoming more Godly. You cant know happiness and joy without knowing pain and suffering. That may sound like a paradox, But it's true. You would not be able to give God your true love from your heart if you had just had every advantage given you, and every pain and circumstance taken care of, How would you grow in spirit if you had no adversity to overcome? This life is about learning lessons and growing because of those lessons learned. This life was not promised to be a paradise. I lost my daughter, She was still born. It was the most painful thing that has ever happened to me in my entire life, till this very day, no pain or suffering has matched this. I was lost for a while.. But I know pain an suffering. I also know love and forgiveness, Because I lost my Daughter in the way I did , I care a great deal for all children, It taught me Love, and it made me grow in spirit. There is a reason for all things. There is a reason for Faith in Gods decisions. Just as Job suffered, others will suffer as well, Just as Job grew in his spirit, others will as well,, But if life and this world were perfect, people would not be able to learn from experiences and Grow, And that is important to realize.

 

[Taom Ben Robert]

According to Muslims there is life in Allah. Who, then, is right?
I am looking for reason-based arguments only please.

First point Christians and Muslims worship the same God , however Muslims have a very deficient view of who He is , as for the point of suffering my response is this ,
1. God is omnibenevolent
2. God cannot force salvation on people
3. For morality / virtue to be easily shown there has to be suffering in the universe ( i.e. showing mercy to people who are hurting)
4 . thus a universe where evil can exist alongside of good , where mercy can be given to others when evil deeds or natural evil ( natural disasters) hurts them , and where one is not forced to follow him is better than the alternatives , which are as follows:
A. A universe with no evil but no good ,is impossible because although morality can exist without evil ( because it comes for God's character ) a lack of good is by definition an evil consequence ( i.e. A lack of good breeds evil , an amoral universe will eventually lead to a universe with evil )
B . A universe where people are forced to serve Him , impossible because that would be cruel and evil
C an purely evil universe, impossible , for evil to be possible , there must be a standard, and again God is just , not cruel and malevolent