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Convert me :)

Deadworm

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We can choose to embrace a spiritual quest and to decide whether this quest will key on an intellectual apologetic path or a mystical/ paranormal path. But you rightly point out that we can't simply just choose to believe. That's why I advocated a mystical line of inquiry in my last post. That said, let me ask you a question designed to determine how real your quest truly is: can you identify a list of issues, which, if satisfactorily addressed, would likely bring you back into the Christian fold?
 
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Hey there. I guess I'll start with the homosexual portion of your post. When it comes to homosexuality and God's love for the world of Men (and Women), if you look at the Bible it will clearly reveal to you that God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. There are a number of verses in the Bible where God expresses displeasure with the act of fornication correct? Well, that is saying that he hates when Men and Women have sex when it is only being performed for their own sexual gratification and not being performed for the purpose of creating new life which is the SOLE purpose of this unity of the flesh. So, he hates it when a MAN and WOMAN pervert this gift that he has given and misuse it for their own personal gain. So, when it comes to lesbians and gay men, there is NO chance that they can procreate because as a pair, they would not possess the right parts for this proper, sanctified union of the flesh as I put it previously. Therefore, it is in my opinion that God would be just as upset over the selfish sex of someone straight as he would be over the selfish sex of a homosexual.

"This life is not meant to be easy" is a phrase or statement that many hear or may have said, but it would seem very few truly understand the gravity of. People are persecuted and executed everyday, SOMEwhere. People are raped and beaten and sometimes for seemingly no reason at all. However, this is not Gods doing. I think it is crazy that when the world shows you evil, God must be the one to blame. He must be verbally assaulted with extreme prejudice and with no hint of remorse. "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the Devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" - 1st Peter 5:8

"12: But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15: Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Time and time again we see that lo and behold, there is another presence in this world acting in his own way toward us. God tells you one thing, and there is told to be someone else telling you another. There is said to be an entity in this life that bends and distorts the view of the universe to any and all of those which he touches. And in my opinion, he has done one hell of a job. The best part of this great deception is that he has "poisoned the well" so to speak. If a man believes something and tells his neighbours and his children, he is acting upon this entities accord. Lucifer could sit back and watch as Men poison and destroy each other, repeating his lies in the community and destroying the fabric of society by their own hand. Hilarious.

Realistically, this conversation is very difficult to have on this forum. If I could speak with you, this would be MUCH easier. But, naturally I would understand any decline. It is just a very hard thing to explain in one sitting on this computer. I would have to go over examples, resource material and a mess of other crap. It would take me hours perhaps even a day or two for me to type the long list of stuff I'd have to show you.

Anyway, as I posted above, those references and quotations from the Bible are obviously Gods way of warning Man that there is somebody out there that wants to hurt you. And if we know anything, it is that if you want somebody hurt or to fall into a trap, you DO NOT warn them about it first. You DO NOT reveal to them the location of the trap, it's mechanics or it's design. You ONLY do this if you want to SAVE someone from getting hurt.

I'll break away for a second to kind of explain how Man treats God (whether they are a believer or not) like a stubborn child treats their parent.

If you want to hang out with a certain group of friends, your father or mother might say, "no, I don't trust them. I want you to be safe." and how would a stubborn child or teenager respond? They would immediately be upset with there parent and lash out in some sort of rebellion, whether it be sneeking out to "do it anyway" when their parents aren't looking or are asleep or they might do something as small as slamming their bedroom door with a yell or scream of frustration. But nonetheless they act out and that is really the point.
God will tell you, "I don't think you should hang out with those sinners. I don't trust them. I only want whats best for you. I want you to be careful and just be cautious when deciding to do something."
And when you feel (as an adult) that this ficticious "God character" is trying to run your whole life, how do we respond? Bursts of anger or frustration; With rebellion. We go and "do it anyway" with a sense of "IT'S MY LIFE [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" just like you would if you were at home with mom and dad. It's YOUR life afterall. They should have no say in how you live it. But what happens when you make a mistake and get arrested or get into trouble? You want God, I mean Mom and Dad to bail you out. And often times the teenager will resent their parents after recieving punishment for their actions even though they were forewarned that if they broke those rules, there would be consequence. It's as if they blame their PARENTS for their misdeed. How much money would you bet that in Hell there aren't MILLIONS upon millions of people cursing Gods name for their punishment with every breath they have? It is almost in some Mens nature to cast the blame onto something or someone else because they simply do not relish in the guilt they feel otherwise. It goes back to Adam and Eve when God walked through in "the cool of the day" and the man and woman hid in the brush to conceil themselves from God. And when God called Adam he finally arose and said "here am I". God asked him why he hid and Adam's response was that he hid when he heard Gods voice out of fear. Like a child hides from their dad when he/she does something wrong and fears the guilt and scolding consequence of their parent for their misdeed. When God asks if he and his wife ate of the tree, they say yes but ONLY BECAUSE THE SERPENT CONVINCED THEM TO. It may be true, but it seems that they wanted the attention to be driven in the direction of the snake rather than having it centered on their wrong doing. Just like a teen would if his friend convinced him to smoke a joint or drink some whiskey when his dad told him not to. What would the teen do in the situation where he were caught? He would try and direct the blame and attention away from himself and over to his friend probably in an attempt to avoid some level of punishment based on the fact that it wasn't ENTIRELY his fault. There are more examples of how Man treats God like a parent and it only makes sense because the Bible does in fact refer to Him as God the Father. He speaks with authority through the Bible and people don't take to authority very well in this life. Someone telling you what to do. Even if that someone truly is only looking out for your best interest. It seems that Man has to make some bad choices to really understand why it is he is here. Only when life sucks do we really reflect on things in such a deep and meaningful manner. It's no wonder that God is commonly brought up in the Worlds, everyone is [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ing depressed or suicidal. Understand though, that it is not just God who is involved in your life. There is another. He is playing the part of "friend" in this situation we call our lives. He will always be that guy that likes the same music you do, wants to party and have sex like you do, wants to catch a buzz like you do. He will always be there when you're feeling rebellious. "And it is no marvel, for Satan himself masquerades as an Angel of light." That's the thing about those "friends". They are always there in some form, wearing some face. And you only figure out their real nature after they bring you to rock bottom because once you've sunk that low, they won't bail you out, they just move on to the next Man and leave you in the dust that was once your life.

I typed all that and I haven't even begun yet. I got off subject a bit but I guess for now that's all I have. My back hurts now.
 
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Cis.jd

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Hi everyone,

I would really appreciate if you took the time to read this!

I was a Catholic; now I'm an atheist. The transition was slow, and it began when certain parts of Christianity began to shake my faith. For example, if non-believers end up in hell, as I had been taught in catechism class, how is that fair to people who have never even had the opportunity to be exposed religion? Why do people suffer so much if a Christian god actually exists? And what's the deal with the homophobia? I have been told god loves all his creations - if he does, his actions don't always show it.

Anyway, these questions troubled me so much that I went on to pursue the truth. My faith disappeared pretty quickly after I began to do some research online. At first, I was uncomfortable with the idea that there may not be a god, now, I am uncomfortable with the idea of there being one. In my eyes, the idea of nothingness after death makes life infinitely more precious. Conversely, the idea of my fate being in the hands of a god who watches me constantly and dictates how I live my life lest I spend the afterlife in eternal suffering - that is not so appealing.

You identify as Christians because you came upon Christianity or because you were raised in it. Had you been born elsewhere, you might be a Muslim or a Buddhist. What grounds do you have for asserting that Christianity is the "correct" religion?

Furthermore, I do think that belief is not a choice. My beliefs are shaped by my environment, and of course by the subconscious functions of my mind. I can't just decide to believe in god if I don't actually believe. Can you "just decide" to believe in unicorns? My beliefs would shift only if I were offered evidence or a compelling argument.
SO, can anyone offer a non-believer any compelling arguments/evidence for God or for religion?
I've heard all the compelling atheist arguments, now I think it is only fair I hear the Christian side of things too.
I look forward to reading what anyone has to say!


Compelling arguments or evidence will never be good enough for any skeptic unless it is face to face proof. There is no face to face proof of God at this time and what can be provided is just our stance as to why we believe in the specific God.

My main reason to believe in God is my observation of the universe. It is just way too systematical to just for me to accept it to be birthed out accidentally. Other than the "cosmos" working all together to keep this planet a living planet, there is also systems in our world to our own body that just looks too designed. The role of the sun, the oxygen cycle, the reproductive system, Evolution, Physics... it's just too brilliant and much more READABLE. We are able to read the universe through numbers, which implies an actual language. A compelling argument for how systems and language can just exist with out a mind is what is needed.

You are right that belief is based on geography, and I have to admit that there maybe things that have popularly illustrated in religious dogma that I don't know if it is true or not. I.E - How the after life is, if every word in the Bible is true to how it is popularly interpreted. I don't know.

Although I do have a reason to believe in Jesus to be God. For a man to be only 3 years in his profession, he just made such a world wide impact that reached through out generations. There had to be something so great about him to cause an impact no one else had in history. What did he do exactly in a 3 year span to change the course of the world and affect billions through out time? Even though there is an argument that various followers died for their beliefs, there is one thing that made the death/martyrdom of his followers very unique. The belief concerning Jesus was not just a bunch of doctrine manipulation, or fancy wordplay... this belief is connected to a very strong claim - a claim that would require something heavy to convince people to give up their lives to the point of brutal death.. and it's the claim that he was God. He rose from a Roman Execution. How can people just believe that so strongly? Think about it, if some guy popped in the vatican and started claiming he was the actual Messiah, or the second coming of Christ, and then is shot dead on the spot. Would people believe his claims after that?


This may not be great evidence for you, and but I choose to believe this based on what i've put. I guess in the end, most of us do choose to believe what we want.
 
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Cis.jd

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As for Homosexuality. I do side with the non-christians on this issue to a degree. I have met a lot of Homosexuals at my church (Catholic church) and they are very good people. They share how hard the struggle is for them but continue to go to church because of their love for God and because (some of them) are hoping for it to be "cured".

If these people felt that horrible about their orientations and went to church constantly to make sure they are close to God as possible, then this logically shows this is not just some choice they made. Their orientation would of have just left them if it was a simple-life style sin like smoking, masturbation, random sexual addictions... but it doesn't leave them. They are deeply stressed about it and are in pain due to the suppression and the thought that they are "outcasts of Christian society".. their homosexuality should have been gone if it was just a simple life style like some ignorant christians judge it to be.

I don't agree about how the media supports it though, especially transgenderism. The way the media praises it and promotes it is what I see as wrong. I think Homosexuality can be caused either because of genetics or influence, and it's something that should be checked on first. If it is really an orientation that they were born with then there is nothing we should speak against that.
 
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HeartThaw

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Many good points made above, and I also thank the posters for their graceful contributions. I also agree that the answers given in God's Word are freely available for those who seek and are willing to accept them. If you seek evidence, it has already been given. Your acceptance of these examples as evidence are entirely up to you and your worldview. Should you wish to weigh your options for belief, my earnest suggestion is for you to educate yourself thoroughly concerning all of them.

Philosophy would be a great place to start. Consider that any path you choose requires a belief of some sort in something you cannot prove. Do you believe that insufficient evidence has been presented for the existence of God? Consider, then, that the signature of an intelligent creator has been printed on every one of your cells and in your very mind. If chance and randomness created you, why then can we depend on consistency and predictability in our observations? If we can only prove that which we can sense, where do numbers and arithmetic come from? Neither are concrete and any proof presupposes their existence. Can you prove your own thoughts and emotions? How did atoms and chemical processes combine to create the very intelligence required of you to even ask the question? Are you a brain or a mind? If you are a brain, then how is it you either are or are not when your brain can function in percentages? Scientists describe what they see, and science is not in contest with the bible. God explains.

If philosophy is not your pursuit, try history. The existence of Christ is considered fact among authorities of ancient texts. He lived, was crucified, died, and His friends as well as enemies believe strongly that He was raised from the dead. You will have great difficulty finding any active university professor whose specialty is ancient history denying any of these facts. There are a very limited number of explanations available to satisfy all four elements.

If you don't like history, try morality. What is right and wrong? Is right whatever you decide it is? Then right is whatever I decide also. I decide that it's OK to cut babies into little pieces. I would venture to guess that if you think it's also OK you don't need education; you need therapy. If there is no absolute right or wrong, then I get to be in front of you in line because that's what's good for me. If there are absolute rights and wrongs, then someone must have made them from the beginning.

I could go on, but my point is that evidence already exists. Evidence doesn't convince; otherwise Judas would not have betrayed Jesus. I doubt any Christian here believes just because the universe is such an awesome place that someone must have created it. What you seek is not evidence. You seek an audience. So did Job. However, he never cursed God and still got put in his place. God will meet you where you are, but He gave all. What are you giving? How much skin do you have in the game?
Wow, this was a really good response .. I just had to add how much this can speak to anyone, rather new Christians, atheist, whomever ... Can get something from this.

But to the OP, go over some of this, and pray about it..
God bless
 
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victorinus

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Why do people suffer so much if a Christian god actually exists?
we have free will and it must be tested
-that is why we are here
-suffering is a big part of the test
-you never really know how a person will react until they are put in a difficult situation
-what will you do when someone else is suffering?
-when you are suffering?
-this is a test
 
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ewq1938

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Hi everyone,

I would really appreciate if you took the time to read this!

I was a Catholic; now I'm an atheist. The transition was slow, and it began when certain parts of Christianity began to shake my faith. For example, if non-believers end up in hell, as I had been taught in catechism class, how is that fair to people who have never even had the opportunity to be exposed religion?

What if God has a plan to justly judge them and not all were found worthy of hell?


Why do people suffer so much if a Christian god actually exists?

Because evil exists as well as natural things that God doesn't stop.



And what's the deal with the homophobia? I have been told god loves all his creations - if he does, his actions don't always show it.

He doesn't love everyone. He loves those who love him and do their best to be morally good people. Homosexuality normally is very sexually sinful and full of immoral fornications.


You identify as Christians because you came upon Christianity or because you were raised in it. Had you been born elsewhere, you might be a Muslim or a Buddhist. What grounds do you have for asserting that Christianity is the "correct" religion?

I think it's the most fair. It's lawful, with morality and punishments for doing wrongly. Religions that only say good will come to all doesn't sound realistic nor fair. Religions that preach war and hate are also too far to the other direction. I find that Christianity is rightly in the middle of these types of things and as I said, is the fairest one.




SO, can anyone offer a non-believer any compelling arguments/evidence for God or for religion?
A good religion promotes the idea of living a good and moral life whereas no religion has no moral guideline and no punishment if one chooses to be immortal.


 
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victorinus

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And what's the deal with the homophobia? I have been told god loves all his creations - if he does, his actions don't always show it.
we are all sinners
-God loves all of us even though we are sinners
-God expects us to love the sinner no matter what the sin is
-this is also part of the test
 
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victorinus

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Furthermore, I do think that belief is not a choice. My beliefs are shaped by my environment, and of course by the subconscious functions of my mind. I can't just decide to believe in god if I don't actually believe.
it really comes down to what you want
-do you want God to exist?
-do you have a reasonable explanation for what we are experiencing?
-God is a reasonable explanation
-you will never find satisfaction without a reasonable explanation
 
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victorinus

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You identify as Christians because you came upon Christianity or because you were raised in it. Had you been born elsewhere, you might be a Muslim or a Buddhist. What grounds do you have for asserting that Christianity is the "correct" religion?
most believe in God in some way
most of them believe in christianity
it is the most developed religion academically
it is based on reason and logic
it is based on history
it is based on the life of one man who we believed was God who suffered and died so we might be saved
 
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kmrichard7

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Hi there; good to see you; God bless His Word to you.

Hebrews 11.6 says: 'He that comes to God, must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him'. So you will see my logic when I politely decline to argue with you.

(If you're interested in the broader context of what this verse is saying, do read the whole chapter. Thanks.)
Yup ^^^
 
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-57

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Hi everyone,

I would really appreciate if you took the time to read this!

I was a Catholic; now I'm an atheist. The transition was slow, and it began when certain parts of Christianity began to shake my faith. For example, if non-believers end up in hell, as I had been taught in catechism class, how is that fair to people who have never even had the opportunity to be exposed religion? Why do people suffer so much if a Christian god actually exists? And what's the deal with the homophobia? I have been told god loves all his creations - if he does, his actions don't always show it.

I kinda wonder about your post...."I was a catholic"....and you can't answer a christianity 101 question? "Why do people suffer so much if a Christian god actually exists?"....you never as a catholic heard about the fall in the garden and the repercussion?
 
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zg14

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Hi, I'm a disciple of Jesus and his original, pre-cross gospel. But I agree with your observations. I believe the Bible was written by holy men, some more holy than others, with various agendas in different ages, then edited and redacted further by holy men with still more diverse agendas. Christianity is a religion about Jesus, not necessarily the religion of Jesus. The religion of Jesus was spiritual, generic and could have improved many religions in the world towards a more unified co-existence, but unfortunately things changed after Jesus left. Fragmented Christianity is sect divided, as you say, one can see just how Christians treat each other on this forum.

Honestly though, I doubt there is anything I can say that will penetrate your heart. But religion does work to preserve values and if you think for a moment, you have a mind conscious of values, consistency and reason. That's why the inconsistency of religious dogma and religious people offends your sincere sensibilities. The reason for your consciousness and discernment is because you are yourself a child of the Living God, a fair and loving God, a good God. He is within you. So you don't need me to convince you of my concept of God, you already have one. Follow it, grow with it, let it continue to guide your conscience. If then you seek this God within your heart you will have already found him.

Thanks for this, probably my favourite response.
 
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Julie.S

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I will be honest and may get flack for this.
I don't know if there is a correct religion in the world considering how many there are and a majority of the people in them will claim it is the right one. I'm being as honest as I can with this regarding what I have seen.

I'm Christian because I was raised this way. If I had stayed in the country that I was born in with my mother (I am adopted) I have no idea if I would be religious or not. I think being religious has helped me be a better person in some ways though. I am caring and willing to wait for others for a very long time. Other things factor into me being like this also but anyway.

I have seen some religious people though that will throw insults at almost anyone that does not go by the same values or beliefs and I believe that is the wrong approach with religion or anything.

In a brighter light of religion though.

I know people who turned to it as something to help them get through some of the hardest things people have to face in life. Things that drive some people to the end of their line and leave them in a dark place.
Praying helped them get through hard times and just the day in general. (I hear praying is also good self help talk and can motivate you)

You can do what you want with life I'm not going to insult you or argue over it.
 
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pat34lee

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I was a Catholic; now I'm an atheist. The transition was slow, and it began when certain parts of Christianity began to shake my faith. For example, if non-believers end up in hell, as I had been taught in catechism class, how is that fair to people who have never even had the opportunity to be exposed religion? Why do people suffer so much if a Christian god actually exists? And what's the deal with the homophobia? I have been told god loves all his creations - if he does, his actions don't always show it.

You identify as Christians because you came upon Christianity or because you were raised in it. Had you been born elsewhere, you might be a Muslim or a Buddhist.

Second paragraph is patently false, or you'd never see converts.

God doesn't change. Study the scriptures with an open mind, or
find a site that teaches the whole bible and read or watch videos
there. One place to start:
http://www.hebroots.org/torahandgrace.htm

As for suffering, read Job a few times.
 
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KWCrazy

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for the moment I will address this one point
-no one will spend their afterlife in eternal suffering
-the second death assures that
Jesus spoke more about hell than He did of Heaven.
Matthew 25:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Revelations 14:
“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. The smoke from her goes up forever and ever.”


Some will go to hell and will burn for all eternity.
Some will be destroyed in the fire; the second death.
Some will be cast into outer darkness for eternity.
The righteous will see God.

I prefer to be in the last group.
 
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-57

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for the moment I will address this one point
-no one will spend their afterlife in eternal suffering
-the second death assures that
-there are many other passages in the bible that confirms this
-so there is no valid reason why this should factor in you unbelief

In your post above you said...."there are many other passages in the bible that confirms this"...
Now, you did use the word MANY. Would you be able to show me 4 of them? I only ask because if the bible says "no one will spend their afterlife in eternal suffering" that's pretty important.
 
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Hammster

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ADMIN HAT ON


I just did a big clean up. This is a no debate area. And the only non-Christians who can post are the OP's. Also, you may only respond to the OP, not to the other responders.


ADMIN HAT OFF

In case you all missed it. I really don't want to start issuing warnings.
 
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