Conversion therapy

[Sparagmos]

Are you a psychotherapist? A psychiatrist?

I find it very hard to believe that all methods of attempting to take a person with gender dysphoria... and correct them... are harmful.

You do realize that gender dysphoria is a real mental condition... right?

So, if it is a real mental condition.. there must be non destructive methods to correct it.

However.. there is no way on this earth that you are going to do it, practice it or study and test new methods to do it..............IF... it is socially unacceptable to try to help someone who is suffering from gender dysphoria... and if gender dysphoria is totally discounted by the LGBTQ movement.... which is so strong that the SJW's will swarm you if you talk as if it is not natural.... then... the anti Christian people in power will never allow it.

The medical community has for many years looked for treatment for gender dysphoria, and has found it - hormone therapy and living as the gender the brain believes that person to be. That is what stops the suicidal thoughts and mental anguish that gender dysphoria causes. I have two close friends and a few acquaintances who all had that experience. They say hormone therapy saved their life.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Carl, thank you for the post clarification. To answer your question, no I would not say the person's experience is fake. I would celebrate such a person getting a result they hoped for in therapy. But, a case of one means nothing, nor do several for that matter. For a therapy to be determined evidence based, it has to have some reliability and replicability. That means if you and I are therapists and use the same method with similar persons, we would get the same percentage of success at a statistically significant level. If I do it with 20 persons and they have success but fail with 200 persons, it's not a supported evidence based practice. That is all.

The problem I have with that, is firstly current therapies which are supposedly evidence based are not making a dent in our escalating mental health crisis.
Secondly if there is a spiritual component in the mix, then the scientific method is not equiped to deal with it or measure it. It seems that the church should be making a call on spiritual issues not science. I am well acquainted with the scientific method and even in the social science arena in which I worked for several years, evidence is largely statistical and not useful in assessing an individual case.

I need to be clear however that I don't support any abusive techniques being employed by fringe ministries.

I also believe the church needs to be right there when it comes to supporting folks wanting to revert back to their birth gender.

I think there is a lot of pressure these days to succumb to gender confusion.

Man these things are easy to say but the deep grief and pain associated with the journey from birth gender and back is immense for the individual and the family.

Lastly Jesus delivered the insane with a Word and we don't want to close the door to the church rediscovering it's place in setting the captives free.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I certainly can't speak for New Zealand but as a practitioner in the United States, I adamantly believe therapy does put a dent in mental health problems. I see the results daily in those I serve. It would be interesting to discuss mental health, suicide, and the efficacy of therapy with you more, but Ill refrain for now as a deviation from the present topic..

 

[Paidiske]

I think the main reason our current mental health system isn't effective is that it is chronically and deeply under-resourced.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I think the main reason our current mental health system isn't effective is that it is chronically and deeply under-resourced.

Therapy isn't the be all and end all. Funding is part of it, but the matter is much more complex than funding or the efficacy of treatment I believe. But again, that's probably for another thread, not this one specific to conversion therapy.

 

[Sketcher]

Third, there are ways of praying with and for people struggling with these issues that are not direct attempts to control or change them. For example, one can pray for people to draw close to God, and for God to be active in that person's life as God best sees fit; and that leaves the matter open and to God's wisdom and grace.

Would you keep it that vague if a specific, clear sin issue is identified? As in, the person either came to you because they identified it and are seeking help, or others brought that person to you because they are being harmed by it?

First, this is not about abstaining from same-sex relations. That is about behaviour, not sexuality.

Second, this is also not about refusing referral. In fact, appropriate referral to medical specialists is very appropriate.

1) Do you honestly believe that legislation and enforcement of that legislation would faithfully respect those differences, not just now, but decades in the future?

2) Perhaps my first question was too narrow. If someone were to come to you for assistance in reducing or eliminating lustful desires for the same sex, should it be illegal for you to help them pray for that or do whatever else you are comfortable with doing to help?

 

[hedrick]

2) Perhaps my first question was too narrow. If someone were to come to you for assistance in reducing or eliminating lustful desires for the same sex, should it be illegal for you to help them pray for that or do whatever else you are comfortable with doing to help?

I should note that this is not necessarily conversion. Generally there’s no legal problem with a gay person asking for help remaining celibate.

 

[Anthony2019]

I think the main reason our current mental health system isn't effective is that it is chronically and deeply under-resourced.

Sadly that is the case here too. I also believe that most of the mental health issues experienced by people with sexuality and gender issues are caused less by their situation but more to do with the stigma associated with it. I have a close friend who is transgender. It is very easy to see why she is struggling with her mental health when every day, almost without exception, she is targeted by people making insulting and derogatory comments about her. She has Christian beliefs and I have often encouraged her to find a church where she lives so she could be welcomed and accepted into their community, however sadly some of the churches she has tried have done nothing but leave her feeling further stigmatised.

 

[Stan Ley]

Hi all, this is a interesting video put up by Martin Iles of the ACL

 

[Paidiske]

Would you keep it that vague if a specific, clear sin issue is identified? As in, the person either came to you because they identified it and are seeking help, or others brought that person to you because they are being harmed by it?

This question is too vague to be given a clear answer. There are a whole range of "sin issues," and a whole range of ways of caring for people struggling with those issues. In general, though, I would note that it is not appropriate, no matter what the issue, for the person providing care to use the encounter as an opportunity to further their own agenda.

1) Do you honestly believe that legislation and enforcement of that legislation would faithfully respect those differences, not just now, but decades in the future?

I have no reason to believe that legislation will fail to set out a clear definition of conversion therapy (and therefore, by implication, what it is not). Drafting lawyers tend to be good at making sure laws contain such clear definitions, in order that the legislation be both effective and enforceable.

2) Perhaps my first question was too narrow. If someone were to come to you for assistance in reducing or eliminating lustful desires for the same sex, should it be illegal for you to help them pray for that or do whatever else you are comfortable with doing to help?

Hedrick is correct in noting that this is not conversion.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Underlying the matter at hand is the biblical record, easily read, which states male and female created He them.

Further the penalties for assuming a different sexual identity than the one given by Him were rather severe as it was said to effect the wellbeing of the whole community. Lev 20:13 This severe punishment was recorded as being required by God Himself.

For such a matter to be described as an abomination should cause us to sit up and take notice, but the sophisticated justifications made in modern thinking and imbibed by many churches leaves the Bible on the shelf as a forgotten and irrelevant fairy tale or worse - even a danger to a healthy society - deserving of a burning.

Now in Jesus there is no condemnation, just love, healing and the invitation to be free.

This freedom however has a price and conditions. God has not changed.

For the believer, He took our punishment, but we are required to be transparent before Him.

Repentance and renounciation then is critical but of course should never be forced.

This leads me to mention the neglected biblical counselling promoted by Dr. Jay Adams who was both a biblical scholar and professional counsellor presenting therapy that was totally anchored in Scripture.

This however is not the flavour of the month - we bend over backwards to preserve the self esteem of our clients as if facing the gravity of their sinful choices was too harsh a burden, and at that point we play God, knowing better than Him as to what is appropriate.

Yet the matter remains that if we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is the first step to enjoying the freedom He offers.

Instead we pour millions into sophisticated therapies that simply do not - in our country anyway - make a dent in mental health if measured by the youth suicide rate which is one of the highest in the world.

Call me old school or a bigot if you want but I have been to hell and back and had years of healing and ministry as a completely rebuilt prodigal son.

P.S. our neighbours were gay and among our best friends and not once did we attempt to force our faith on them or withdraw love.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hi all, this is a interesting video put up by Martin Iles of the ACL

This is an excellent presentation of the matter I have raised in this thread.

 

[Hospes]

Call it whatever, but if I have a person that desires to overcome sin in their life, I'd counsel them as to any other. If the law says I am practicing conversion therapy, then so be it.

 

[Sketcher]

I should note that this is not necessarily conversion. Generally there’s no legal problem with a gay person asking for help remaining celibate.

Hedrick is correct in noting that this is not conversion.

Why do you say this is not conversion?

This question is too vague to be given a clear answer. There are a whole range of "sin issues," and a whole range of ways of caring for people struggling with those issues. In general, though, I would note that it is not appropriate, no matter what the issue, for the person providing care to use the encounter as an opportunity to further their own agenda.

I agree that it is not appropriate to put an agenda before the person coming to you for care, or to treat the person as a means to an end. Let's make this easier.

Let's say you were involved in a prison ministry. Someone goes to prison for a crime of violence and is in your care. Would you merely pray for that person "to draw close to God, and for God to be active in that person's life as God best sees fit" or would you be more specific than that? Should you try and help change that person from violent to non-violent or not? If you don't have the expertise needed for that particular area, pretend that you did have as much expertise in that area as a qualified human being can have, and base your answer on that assumption.

 

[Pathfinder627]

Would you merely pray for that person "to draw close to God, and for God to be active in that person's life as God best sees fit" or would you be more specific than that? Should you try and help change that person from violent to non-violent or not? If you don't have the expertise needed for that particular area, pretend that you did have as much expertise in that area as a qualified human being can have, and base your answer on that assumption.

I know you're not asking me, but nobody is going to change except with God's intervention. Praying would be the first thing to do. I say this as someone who was violent myself, and around gang life in my teens. In addition to drugs. Nothing will help except the Spirit of God transforming a person. Good advice and mentoring can only plant the seeds.

 

[Paidiske]

Why do you say this is not conversion?

Sorry, I was in a hurry and a bit unclear.

There is a difference between conversion in its general sense as a religious term, which is very broad, and "conversion" in the sense meant in "conversion therapy." That specific sense means, in short, making a gay/lesbian/bisexual person straight, or making a transgendered person cisgendered.

Someone with same-sex attraction seeking to reduce their sexual desire for the same sex is not the same as trying to "make them straight." (In crude terms).

Let's say you were involved in a prison ministry. Someone goes to prison for a crime of violence and is in your care. Would you merely pray for that person "to draw close to God, and for God to be active in that person's life as God best sees fit" or would you be more specific than that? Should you try and help change that person from violent to non-violent or not? If you don't have the expertise needed for that particular area, pretend that you did have as much expertise in that area as a qualified human being can have, and base your answer on that assumption.

I am not sure that this is a comparable example, in developmental terms; but in general I would say it is dangerous for Christian ministers to seek to change the people to whom we minister. We need to have the humility to recognise that it is God who brings about change in people, not us; and also the humility to recognise that God's agenda for healing that person might look very different to ours.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I
Does it need to be assistance from a church though? There may be those doctors skilled at detransitioning those who want it. Ideally a church would be involved but maybe there aren't many churches skilled or trained to help in this area yet?

Of course - but the wording of the proposed law would ban the church from participating it seems.

 

[Pathfinder627]

Honestly, I don't know anything about conversion therapy. Not a thing. Why is it called "conversion"? If it entails some "step by step" plan for conversion to Christ, mixed up with conversion from homosexual inclinations, then it's bound to fail. As I said above, only God can do this. I'm also convinced that most won't even care about God in the first place until they hit rock bottom or something else equally dramatic that makes them want to flee the darkness in their lives. These things can't be taught. And most don't want to be taught. You can only plant a seed. And you know how Jesus' parable goes about that.

 

[Quartermaine]

Would you keep it that vague if a specific, clear sin issue is identified? As in, the person either came to you because they identified it and are seeking help, or others brought that person to you because they are being harmed by it?


1) Do you honestly believe that legislation and enforcement of that legislation would faithfully respect those differences, not just now, but decades in the future?

2) Perhaps my first question was too narrow. If someone were to come to you for assistance in reducing or eliminating lustful desires for the same sex, should it be illegal for you to help them pray for that or do whatever else you are comfortable with doing to help?

Saying something like "lustful desires for the same sex" would make me think they have been victim to long term abuse and propaganda.

 

[Quartermaine]

Hi all, this is a interesting video put up by Martin Iles of the ACL

i turned him off after the 20th blatant lie