Conversion therapy

[Carl Emerson]

Sorry my mistake... #53

 

[seeking.IAM]

Carl, thank you for the post clarification. To answer your question, no I would not say the person's experience is fake. I would celebrate such a person getting a result they hoped for in therapy. But, a case of one means nothing, nor do several for that matter. For a therapy to be determined evidence based, it has to have some reliability and replicability. That means if you and I are therapists and use the same method with similar persons, we would get the same percentage of success at a statistically significant level. If I do it with 20 persons and they have success but fail with 200 persons, it's not a supported evidence based practice. That is all.

 

[Junia]

there is any number of people who claim to have been abducted by UFO's as well.

A huge discontinuity when you ask those who have been "cured" if they are heterosexual. Chances are you won't get a straight answer. There is talk about "leaving the gay lifestyle, what ever that is, and struggles with same sex attraction but no one saying i am a happy healthy heterosexual

maybe they like me. God set me free from same sex attraction but I don't consider myself as having any sexuality at moment. No desire at all for a partner of either sex.

some people.aren't interested in sex or relationships.

 

[Junia]

If someone has transitioned (physically and/or socially), and chooses to detransition, that's a matter for them and their health team.

The church can support that decision by that person, as I mentioned, in practical ways, in emotional ways, and so on; what it can't do is try to tell that person that they should detransition, or in any way try to coerce or control that process.

Also, you seem to be conflating sexuality and gender identity, and that's probably not helpful.

Yes am a bit confused by this. Trans and gay/bi are not the same issue

 

[Anthony2019]

Yes, I care. I care that ignorant and foolish Christians have harmed and, without government intervention, will cheerfully continue to harm, vulnerable people who turn to them for help. I want to see that stop.

I totally agree. I care that vulnerable people seeking help from a therapist will receive counselling and treatment based on the best evidence available. Preferably an accredited professional therapist who treats people as individuals, who conducts themselves honesty and transparently, showing impartiality and respect towards their client's opinions, freedoms and values. Someone who has undergone robust training and has an in-depth knowledge of the matter they are dealing with and, ideally, someone who has a proven track record of helping people using treatment methods that have been successfully proven.

 

[Junia]

OK my OP asked however, if the proposed legislation will ban churches from assisting those who want to return to their birth gender. I have Christian friends who are deeply greived and regret assisting their daughter to change sex - if all parties agree to reverse the journey, will the church under the new law be banned from assisting ?

I
Does it need to be assistance from a church though? There may be those doctors skilled at detransitioning those who want it. Ideally a church would be involved but maybe there aren't many churches skilled or trained to help in this area yet?

 

[Paidiske]

Does it need to be assistance from a church though? There may be those doctors skilled at detransitioning those who want it. Ideally a church would be involved but maybe there aren't many churches skilled or trained to help in this area yet?

We wouldn't expect churches to be the source of medical care for other issues. Supportive of people engaging in medical care elsewhere (from appropriate medical professionals), sure; but not providing that care directly.

 

[Junia]

I totally agree. I care that vulnerable people seeking help from a therapist will receive counselling and treatment based on the best evidence available. Preferably an accredited professional therapist who treats people as individuals, who conducts themselves honesty and transparently, showing impartiality and respect towards their client's opinions, freedoms and values. Someone who has undergone robust training and has an in-depth knowledge of the matter they are dealing with and, ideally, someone who has a proven track record of successfully helping people using treatment methods that have been successfully proven.

I agree. let us be honest here- there is good Christian therapy and also very bad Christian therapy. And good secular therapy and bad secular therapy

I really does depend on whether the therapy offered helps or harms the person seeking it

My personal view is that no one under age of majority should transition anyway. Otherwise we'll meaning Christian parents might try to put their kids in conversion therapy just to sort the issue quickly rather than shop around for the most helpful kind of treatment

 

[Junia]

Which is understandable but could cause great harm to the child being ministered to...

 

[Junia]

Jesus is the master physician and His way of treating hurting sick people was "to do no harm". No force, no coercion. Just setting those free who came to Him. Voluntarily and willingly

 

[Junia]

We wouldn't expect churches to be the source of medical care for other issues. Supportive of people engaging in medical care elsewhere (from appropriate medical professionals), sure; but not providing that care directly.

I

Exactly! I have experienced far too many Christian counsellors who have made me worse because they refuse to understand the medical psychiatric side. Just saying "repent and start behaving better" didn't cut it for me.

I cannot imagine what it is like to be transsexual but just like any issue it requires sensitivity and compassion

 

[Junia]

We wouldn't expect churches to be the source of medical care for other issues. Supportive of people engaging in medical care elsewhere (from appropriate medical professionals), sure; but not providing that care directly.

I

it is funny how when Christians get a heart attack they rarely fret over whether the cardiac surgeon is a Christian or not

 

[Quartermaine]

maybe they like me. God set me free from same sex attraction but I don't consider myself as having any sexuality at moment. No desire at all for a partner of either sex.

some people.aren't interested in sex or relationships.

that is very sad

 

[Junia]

that is very sad

I
not if they are happy that way. Singleness and childfree lifestyles are praised in the Bible not judged.

it is sad if they are unhappy though.

I knew a man who was delivered from homosexuality and it was a long process. First ?God set him free from his attraction to men. But he didn't start dating or marry straight away

 

[Anthony2019]

I agree. let us be honest here- there is good Christian therapy and also very bad Christian therapy. And good secular therapy and bad secular therapy

I totally agree - there are good therapists and bad ones. I have had counselling in the past for an unrelated matter. I remember the counselling that helped me and the counselling that made me feel worse.
I think that to be a good therapist, it is important to have a kind, tolerant and patient character, to be a good and avid listener and show a genuine interest in what the patient has to say. To respect their views, experiences and choices, knowing that although it not may seem relevant or important, it is nonetheless important to the one being helped. Being a good therapist is all about being able to relate to people at all levels, not just those we feel comfortable with. Above all, the therapeutic relationship is built on trust. If I came across a counsellor that didn't have these traits then I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.

 

[Junia]

I totally agree - there are good therapists and bad ones. I have had counselling in the past for an unrelated matter. I remember the counselling that helped me and the counselling that made me feel worse.
I think that to be a good therapist, it is important to have a kind, tolerant and patient character, to be a good and avid listener and show a genuine interest in what the patient has to say. To respect their views, experiences and the choices, knowing that although it not may seem relevant or important, it is nonetheless important to the one being helped. Being a good therapist is all about being able to relate to people at all levels, not just those we feel comfortable with. Above all, the therapeutic relationship is built on trust.

So true.

 

[Anthony2019]

So true.

And to think that if we expect these standards in a secular counsellor, how much more should we expect from a Christian counsellor?

 

[Sketcher]

Again, (drawing on my synod speech!), I'm not going to say that God can never change any of these things in people. But we do enormous harm when we, as limited and fallible mortals, try to do what only God can do.

But if one of them wants you to pray with them for that change, should it be illegal for you to pray that prayer with them?

If one of them came to you, and asked for help with abstaining from same-sex relations or for help with returning to presenting as their biological sex, is whatever you do feel comfortable with in terms of helping - even if it's referring them to one or more specialists that you trust - something that should be made illegal?

 

[Sparagmos]

Say Christ's name

Pardon?

 

[Paidiske]

But if one of them wants you to pray with them for that change, should it be illegal for you to pray that prayer with them?

If one of them came to you, and asked for help with abstaining from same-sex relations or for help with returning to presenting as their biological sex, is whatever you do feel comfortable with in terms of helping - even if it's referring them to one or more specialists that you trust - something that should be made illegal?

First, this is not about abstaining from same-sex relations. That is about behaviour, not sexuality.

Second, this is also not about refusing referral. In fact, appropriate referral to medical specialists is very appropriate.

Third, there are ways of praying with and for people struggling with these issues that are not direct attempts to control or change them. For example, one can pray for people to draw close to God, and for God to be active in that person's life as God best sees fit; and that leaves the matter open and to God's wisdom and grace.

Given that many people are comfortable "helping" in ways which are not at all helpful, then there certainly should be legal boundaries!