Conversations with Staff in Married Forum

[ValleyGal]

See this is what I am not understanding....It's ok to advise separation or divorce but it's not ok to recommend people stay together???

Avniel, I'm surprised at you, and a little disappointed. No one in this thread suggested that we don't advise trying to work it out. I think all of us have, at some point, said we do not advocate divorce at the first sign of trouble. Apparently admin is looking at the idea of discussing divorce as a last resort. Of course the ideal is to stay and work it out. The truth is, not a lot of abuser see their behaviour as abusive. It's normal to them. They are not likely to get help because they blame their spouse for the abuse and the state of the marriage. There is a time and place for everything under the sun....even divorce.

 

[ValleyGal]

I thought we weren't allowed to advice divorce in this section? Your saying its the opposite? If so then rules need to be changed. We should give advice obviously but not tell someone specifically what they should do. Although in my case I NEVER suggest divorce. I don't even believe in it not matter what the bible says. You fight for your marriage, because if you don't the vows you gave to your spouse in front of God are rendered pointless.

The vows are also rendered pointless if a spouse is going to beat the other, or verbally or sexually abuse the other, or financially abuse the other, etc. The marriage covenant is broken with the sinful behaviour that leads to divorce, not with the divorce itself - especially when the divorce is in response to abuse.

Like my colleague in nursing, the psychiatrist I saw for an evaluation told me I would be dead if he went off on me in another beating or two - he escalated very fast from breaking my hand to choking me nearly to death. I do not believe my divorce was sin. I DO believe HIS behaviour was sin and I would not be divorced from him if he did not abuse me.

 

[MrsSWH]

There are people in the world that are not affected by verbal abuse. Feeling depression is a luxury, feeling verbally abused is a luxury. There are people in the world that can not feed themselves they struggle to find drinking water. I say it constantly I have been to some of the poorest countries, I have been to some of the meanest and most dangerous areas of the world. In those places if you ask a wife how does it make her feel that her husband calls her "fat and stupid everyday" her response is going to be different because she isn't worried about that it's not on her radar.

I still stand firm if you are not in physical danger I don't believe divorce should even be suggested.

I don't usually comment here I felt compelled to post. There is no need to minimize someone's situation to make your point. I agree divorce should only be advised where a spouse/children are likely to be physically harmed or in the case of adultery/abandonment. However depression is a very real thing. It is not a "luxury" and I would say they are poor people who feel it terribly. I remember teaching during a gap year at University in a rather "poor" part of a country. The young people there had very high suicide rates driven I'd say by high expectations. It is a struggle to find water. It is also a struggle to be expected to be number 1 in class when only one person can be and to enter a top university with your families expectations on you for a better future. And as for the women well I have seem the programs with child and adult brides and a lot of them are unhappy with the situation they just can not do anything about it. To suggest it isn't on the radar is dishonest. I have not met many Spock's. In the culture I visited if you spoke disrespectfully to the wrong person they would be insulted and you may not be able to buy anything in the town or be allowed to sleep in any of the local "hotels". It is only verbally abusing the weak/unimportant that is tolerated.

It's not our place to encourage others to divorce, not only is it sinful it's wrong. What I think is going to happen is that every person with a problem(women mostly) will be advised to divorce to push a feminist agenda, IMO. This will lead to arguments because there will be posters that are going to be upset and feel morally compelled to stand up and say this does not agree with the word of God. Then posters will become upset there will be a back and forth constantly and new bad blood will develop between posters.

I completely disagree with this. You must do what your conscience tells you. Also why is it a feminist position to suggest women should be treated fairly? That they should not be threatened by their husband. I think it is views like this that make "submission" and other issues on this topic forbidden. I for one am a firm believer of the above but the views I hear mainly from men make me agree with the decision not to allow the conversation.

 

[Chaplain David]

Hi Everybody,

Thanks for your participation today. I'm going to close for tonight. I hope everyone has a nice evening.

Faithfully,

 

[Romanseight2005]

The vows are also rendered pointless if a spouse is going to beat the other, or verbally or sexually abuse the other, or financially abuse the other, etc. The marriage covenant is broken with the sinful behaviour that leads to divorce, not with the divorce itself - especially when the divorce is in response to abuse.

Like my colleague in nursing, the psychiatrist I saw for an evaluation told me I would be dead if he went off on me in another beating or two - he escalated very fast from breaking my hand to choking me nearly to death. I do not believe my divorce was sin. I DO believe HIS behaviour was sin and I would not be divorced from him if he did not abuse me.

So sorry you went through that. You are right. The Scriptures talk about men who dealt treacherously with the wife of each man's youth. That certainly includes abuse.

 

[Chaplain David]

Good morning everyone,

I think we are coming to a close as far as this OP is concerned. Let's not pick at each other but be loving and proactive in our marriage forum relationships. We've put forth some requests that the Advisors will consider. More domestic abuse resources have been submitted and will be included in a marriage forum crisis and resource list. Various members have shared about how they view marriage, abuse, divorce, separation and other matters. Therefore a greater understanding of each other on the forum should result. I believe this thread will be a great help both to staff and each other. I've enjoyed being with you during this process.

Faithfully,
CH Sacerdote

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Good morning everyone,

I think we are coming to a close as far as this OP is concerned. Let's not pick at each other but be loving and proactive in our marriage forum relationships. We've put forth some requests that the Advisors will consider. More domestic abuse resources have been submitted and will be included in a marriage forum crisis and resource list. Various members have shared about how they view marriage, abuse, divorce, separation and other matters. Therefore a greater understanding of each other on the forum should result. I believe this thread will be a great help both to staff and each other. I've enjoyed being with you during this process.

Faithfully,
CH Sacerdote

Thanks everyone for the great input.

 

[mkgal1]

I had another thought, I wanted to add. Instead of deeming certain topics as "not able to be mentioned in this forum"......maybe we could just have the rules to be more like debates. IMO.....it's helpful to have opposing views (when they are respectful, and there's no underhanded tactics used to present them). An example of two people, with very opposite beliefs, debating in a respectful way is here:

Trailer: The Debate -- Is Mormonism Christian? Elder Joe Evans Vs James Walker on Vimeo
Neither resorted to insulting the other.

IMO.....a good framework would be to use the list of fallacies (and to not "allow" them to be used in posts). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

 

[LinkH]

Btw, I am in a different time zone. Can you keep this thread open for a few more minutes? It usually closes when I am trying to post something.

 

[LinkH]

Link, nothing against you personally. But when I mention that certain voices in these threads tend to overrun other opinions to the point that theirs become the only 'truth' on the matter of marriage and divorce, the above quotes are exactly what I am talking about.

Posts like these leave me scratching my head, too. It's an ongoing thing on the forum. Someone posted along the lines that encouraging someone to endure a difficult situation, it is unloving. I was talking about verbal abuse, and that's how I interpreted this little tributary of the thread I was responding to.

I posted from the perspective of 'what does the Bible say' pointing out that Christ suffered, His apostles, and a loving God sometimes allows us to suffer. Sometimes doing the right thing that pleases God requires some suffering. Love isn't putting someone in a situation where they don't suffer. If it were, then if we loved our kids, we wouldn't send them to school or have them do anything hard. They'd be playing X-Box and swimming in the pool all day.

Then there is a respose like this. My point is that I certainly want the forum to be an open place for 'what does the Bible have to say' type posts. I don't mind other people responding with a different opinion of what that is, especially a well-reasoned one.

From my perspective, it doesn't seem like posts that attempt to reason from scripture are accepted are accepted as the only truth on the matter. Some positions may be better argued that others, but in many cases it seems like posts are filled with various opinions, some good, some bad, but posts from an attempt to answer 'what does the Bible actually say' can be a rarity in some threads. It doesn't seem like those who post from this perspective always have the majority opinion either.

I was reading another post on a Facebook Forum on a completely different topic. A Bible College professor on there states certain things rather emphatically, and was getting some flack for it. He pointed out that various people in scripture, e.g. Moses, Ezra, the Lord Jesus, the apostles, or whoever was in his list, were just as emphatic in the way they approached issues. He considered the Post-modern urge to qualify everything to be wimpy. In some cases, I agree with him. If you really do have 'thus saith the Lord' it can even be disrespectful to the Lord to not be emphatic about something. If you are on the wall standing guard and the enemy is coming, you don't want to kind of toot the horn gently and not wake anyone up. You want to blow it up. Metaphorically speaking, many of the heroes in the Bible blew the horn loudly, including the Lord Jesus Himself.

 

[ValleyGal]

I posted from the perspective of 'what does the Bible say' pointing out that Christ suffered, His apostles, and a loving God sometimes allows us to suffer. Sometimes doing the right thing that pleases God requires some suffering.

No one said we need to alleviate all suffering. Sure, suffering is necessary. It is suffering to deny yourself pleasure for your spouse and children's sake. It is suffering to die to your own needs so that the needs of your spouse and children are met. That is joining Jesus in his suffering. Sometimes spouses say hurtful things to each other. That is also suffering.

It is another thing altogether to remain in a marriage where there is chronic abuse of any kind. That is NOT the kind of suffering God calls us to. He did NOT stand by and allow the money-changers to defile the temple. He fought for purity. He fought against sin. He yelled at some groups and even went so far as to call a group a "brood of vipers." We are NOT to sit back and allow others to continue in the sin they are caught up in. This is also what it means when we are to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. If my husband is caught in a sin, I'm going to say something about it....and I hope he also does the same for me! And I WILL submit because he is speaking on behalf of the Lord Jesus....this is submission to him as I submit to the Lord, dying to myself for his sake. And he does the same for me. Abuse? I will not allow one spouse to continue to sin at the expense of the other spouse. That is not what Christ calls us to. I will not counsel anyone to remain in abusive situations just because "Christ suffered." It is not even comparable.

To admin/mods - sorry. I just can't shut up about such injustices. I really do try to be tactful.

 

[motherprayer]

Hey everyone, I'm going to shut the thread down for the night. See you all in the morning, God bless!

 

[motherprayer]

Good morning! I'm reopening the thread for the day

 

[Chaplain David]

Good Morning Mother Prayer,

God bless you and everyone this day.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

No one said we need to alleviate all suffering. Sure, suffering is necessary. It is suffering to deny yourself pleasure for your spouse and children's sake. It is suffering to die to your own needs so that the needs of your spouse and children are met. That is joining Jesus in his suffering. Sometimes spouses say hurtful things to each other. That is also suffering.

It is another thing altogether to remain in a marriage where there is chronic abuse of any kind. That is NOT the kind of suffering God calls us to. He did NOT stand by and allow the money-changers to defile the temple. He fought for purity. He fought against sin. He yelled at some groups and even went so far as to call a group a "brood of vipers." We are NOT to sit back and allow others to continue in the sin they are caught up in. This is also what it means when we are to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. If my husband is caught in a sin, I'm going to say something about it....and I hope he also does the same for me! And I WILL submit because he is speaking on behalf of the Lord Jesus....this is submission to him as I submit to the Lord, dying to myself for his sake. And he does the same for me. Abuse? I will not allow one spouse to continue to sin at the expense of the other spouse. That is not what Christ calls us to. I will not counsel anyone to remain in abusive situations just because "Christ suffered." It is not even comparable.

To admin/mods - sorry. I just can't shut up about such injustices. I really do try to be tactful.

Amen.

 

[MessianicMommy]

To admin/mods - sorry. I just can't shut up about such injustices. I really do try to be tactful.

It's a virtue really. The bible says we shouldn't be silent in the face of injustices.

 

[ValleyGal]

My apologies for my over-the-top reaction. I let my feelings get the best of me, and must learn to have compassion on those who are suffering as well as on those who do not have compassion on those who are suffering. I will not use the red smilie face again to express myself.

 

[Hetta]

I guess I'm late coming to this thread - I should pay more attention. I don't have the patience to read the previous 15 pages, but just wanted to say that, so far as that thread was concerned, the OP did not ask about divorce, she asked for help in sustaining her marriage therefore, imo, comments would have been better directed in helping her to find counseling, or offering prayer. A couple of comments that I saw in the first two pages of that thread were appalling (and have since been removed, thank goodness) but they made a big joke out of who was the first to recommend divorce! I found that to be really poor taste and I felt for the OP who had bared her soul and was looking for other Christians to come alongside and help her.

 

[LinkH]

No one said we need to alleviate all suffering. Sure, suffering is necessary. It is suffering to deny yourself pleasure for your spouse and children's sake. It is suffering to die to your own needs so that the needs of your spouse and children are met. That is joining Jesus in his suffering. Sometimes spouses say hurtful things to each other. That is also suffering.

It is another thing altogether to remain in a marriage where there is chronic abuse of any kind. That is NOT the kind of suffering God calls us to. He did NOT stand by and allow the money-changers to defile the temple. He fought for purity. He fought against sin. He yelled at some groups and even went so far as to call a group a "brood of vipers." We are NOT to sit back and allow others to continue in the sin they are caught up in. This is also what it means when we are to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. If my husband is caught in a sin, I'm going to say something about it....and I hope he also does the same for me! And I WILL submit because he is speaking on behalf of the Lord Jesus....this is submission to him as I submit to the Lord, dying to myself for his sake. And he does the same for me. Abuse? I will not allow one spouse to continue to sin at the expense of the other spouse. That is not what Christ calls us to. I will not counsel anyone to remain in abusive situations just because "Christ suffered." It is not even comparable.

To admin/mods - sorry. I just can't shut up about such injustices. I really do try to be tactful.

I can understand why the whole topic of abuse is one that will stir people up. It's a very charged issue. The topic I was addressing was whether the restriction on the forum against advising divorce if there were not bodily injury should be expanded to include verbal abuse. I don't believe Christians should, generally, be silent in the fact of injustice. I'm all for getting the church involved if someone is mistreating their spouse and won't listen to correction. For more severe situations, rulers 'do not bear the sword in vain.' There are police in our society and other protections for people in more extreme situations.

But I also notice that in I Peter 3, Peter did not tell wives whose husbands 'did not obey the word' to leave them. Name calling and other 'verbal abuse' is not obeying the word. I would venture to guess that in the majority of marriages, one person or another has said something to their spouse that could be considered 'verbally abusive.' Often these things are resolved through forgiveness and reconciliation.

 

[Avniel]

I guess I'm late coming to this thread - I should pay more attention. I don't have the patience to read the previous 15 pages, but just wanted to say that, so far as that thread was concerned, the OP did not ask about divorce, she asked for help in sustaining her marriage therefore, imo, comments would have been better directed in helping her to find counseling, or offering prayer. A couple of comments that I saw in the first two pages of that thread were appalling (and have since been removed, thank goodness) but they made a big joke out of who was the first to recommend divorce! I found that to be really poor taste and I felt for the OP who had bared her soul and was looking for other Christians to come alongside and help her.

That is actually where I am with this. Now when I think of it on that thread valleygal didn't even suggest divorce. The people that suggested divorce are the people that I don't want to have the ability to suggest divorce to others. I think that is unfair I could understand if she said she wanted a divorce but she did not. I can understand if her husband threatened to hit her or actually did hit her along with the verbal abuse but that was not the case. I don't want people to be able to suggest divorce to a woman that is clearly not in a good place mentally. Then laugh about it suggesting a divorce when the lady probably cried her eyes out. I mean I often get accused of being insensitive towards people that are verbally abused and I was more sensitive then the people that suggested divorce.

"LOL you beat me to suggesting that........ this lady that is probably crying typing this, on her knees everyday praying God fixes this, finds a christian forum to get support .........get's a divorce" Hahaha

I don't want that.