Conversations with Staff in Married Forum

[ValleyGal]

A New Dawn, thank you for sharing your experience. Thank God that you survived two terrible situations. You know abuse too well, and I pray God's continued healing for you.

You are right...typically abuse is extreme. Sometimes it's not so evident, but still a threat. Your second husband did not love you back, yet he made a vow to love you. If he is anything like my second husband, he could have a narcissistic personality disorder (not just garden-variety narcissism). They do not love anyone unless there is something in it for them, and discard people when there is nothing left in it for them. My friend warned me ahead of time that "it's all about HIM and never about YOU." We were only married a month due to the weekly beatings that came along with being an outspoken and vocal wife of a narcissist/abuser.

There is a turn to this. After I kicked him out, we went for counselling. In counselling, I talked about what my friend had said, that it's all about HIM. But that made ME come across as the selfish one, and the counsellor recommended that I go to a psychiatrist because there was something wrong with me. I did, and the diagnosis was HIS NPD. The counsellor got it wrong, because I spoke up and said something - anything - needs to be about me sometimes....relationships are reciprocal.

That is also abuse. It is the type that happens over many years of simply being treated less than human, or less than your spouse. Less than respectfully. And when it happens over time, people don't realize it's happened until 20 years later when they wake up one day and realize they hate themselves, feel worthless, devalued by the one who vowed to love them.

Where to draw the line? The person is "safe" but could be totally suicidal because of the devaluation the spouse has lavished on them for decades.

Another part of this is the reasons for divorce Biblically. I affirm the Bible as the final authority of God's holy word. I affirm everything in it is true and can be taken literally, within the context of culture, language, writing style, recipient, authorship, purpose, etc. I realize that there are many interpretations of the whole divorce subject and everyone has their thoughts. I have been divorced a couple of times as well, know the pain it causes, and do NOT advocate that people run to divorce court for any simple matter just because it's more convenient than working it out. But when I studied divorce, and see several reasons through scripture - adultery, idolatry (meaning putting other priorities above your spouse, not meaning about God), abandonment, and hardness of heart. Marriage is supposed to represent the relationship between Christ and the Church. This is mutual love, mutual submission, mutual sacrifice, mutual selflessness, mutual service. Yes, the Church violates this sometimes when self gets in the way, so there is mercy, grace, reconciliation. But the commitment is still there. There is still goodwill, affection for one another.

What happens when a believer decides to become selfish, when they do not have goodwill towards Jesus anymore, when they go their own way, when they do things on their own, when they start to disobey God? A hard heart sets in. It removes the right relationship. Look at God. In the OT he even gave Israel her certificate of divorce, but he took her back after seeing Judah was even worse than Israel. The point is that sometimes there is an end to it. Just as you are no longer with your second husband. You put up with it for many years, even though you were "safe" - you still divorced. He would not go for counselling (and even if he did, most stats show that counselling is rarely effective to keep a couple married and eventually increase marital satisfaction).

Hardness of heart is very difficult to live with - your husbands' hearts were hard, and you had to live with it. Eventually it was impossible to live with it.

There are a lot of people who turn to the internet forums because they can't afford counselling, because they are ashamed, because they are afraid, because their spouse won't attend counselling with them, and in my case because the counsellor figured I was the one with NPD rather than my husband (plus he made ME take responsibility for the beatings - if I had not done x my husband would not have hit me).

I guess I'm saying all this to suggest that maybe the policy could be revisited and maybe rewritten in a way that people can suggest divorce only as a last alternative, after every other alternative has run out, and/or in order to maintain the short and long term safety of both spouses, and to prevent direct or vicarious trauma in the children.

 

[MessianicMommy]

Again, what part of "a dangerous situation" would not apply in these instances? Why are you ignoring that part of the rule?

You sound defensive.

I am asking for the rule to be clarified because much abuse is unseen and not considered "a dangerous situation" by people who have had no interactions with it.

We are asking for clarification for ALL abuse cases. For example, the two or three women who have posted in the Married Forum who were obviously being whipped around by their spouse, one of which was being gaslighted. For advising separation, several of us got slapped on the wrist.

Simply calling in a pastor isn't always going to help. One girl had posted that she'd repeatedly sought advice from her priest and he kept telling her she had to stay and submit and do what he said to do or she's a heretic; and that's even against Catholic teaching.

This is what we're driving at. Not that we want to flaunt rules, but we want our hands freed to help rather than shackled and us to just make annoying head movements towards the right direction.

 

[motherprayer]

Speaking of separation, I believe we CAN advise that, right? Just not divorce?

 

[ValleyGal]

You sound defensive.

I'm sure this is a very difficult conversation for A New Dawn to have, given her history. I am appreciative of the fact that this is a difficult conversation for many of us, and want to be sensitive to people's experience as well as address the policies that affect how we are able to help people in those situations. I'm so glad this conversation is taking place. Often policies come from the top down and the top is unwilling to engage in dialogue, so this is a good process, and maybe A New Dawn will even find a little more healing in it....

 

[A New Dawn]

Speaking of separation, I believe we CAN advise that, right? Just not divorce?

Separation can be advised. Separation gives several courses of action that might positively affect a marriage that is not possible while still living together. But it carries the condition of still being (and acting) married.

 

[mkgal1]

Here's where I'm coming from. This is a Christian site. IMO.......our marriages should be reflecting a higher level of love than the "world", since we have Christ. The Bible says, "they will know you by your love" (John 13:35). Shouldn't there be a place where people can go to see what a healthy standard of love looks like? A place where people can honestly say (put the topic of divorce/separation aside for a second)....."that's not healthy"......"that's not loving". There's a difference between a person losing their temper and throwing something across the room (not aimed at anyone) and someone that has an abusive pattern of behavior (conflict resolution avoidance is a huge part of that). IMO.....it'd be helpful if there were freedom to discuss all this.

 

[motherprayer]

Separation can be advised. Separation gives several courses of action that might positively affect a marriage that is not possible while still living together. But it carries the condition of still being (and acting) married.

So maybe this is the advice we can lean on, for those we feel are in a situation that is unlivable?

Advising a person to separate from an abusive spouse is quite profitable, for many reasons, including the fact that it is Scriptural. Can we not just go with that, for future issues? That would allow members with experience in this area to express their views, without turning towards the divorce option, at least here in the forums.

Is that a feasible option?

 

[Chaplain David]

Peace.

 

[A New Dawn]

Are you feeling regret over your second marriage (and how it ended), New Dawn? It may offer you some solace if you read Lundy Bancroft's book, "Why Does He Do That". If you want something a little less in depth, IMO......his blog has loads of insight. Healing and Hope: Search results for charm

One thing I feel is that I judged my second husband by my first husband's actions. It's always easy to look back on something and say "I over-reacted", because who's to say that it would have gone farther than it did? At that point, it was what I brought to the relationship that dictated my action at that point. Was it getting harder and harder to function in that relationship, even putting aside the throwing of things? Yes, but had I had the tools to put things in perspective, even for a little while longer, who's to say that he wouldn't have changed and considered going to a counselor. That is all I'm thinking. I can't say it is regret, but it did affect my daughter's life, and it affected the life of my 3rd marriage till my daughter went off to college and I didn't have to deal with him anymore.

 

[Chaplain David]

Here's where I'm coming from. This is a Christian site. IMO.......our marriages should be reflecting a higher level of love than the "world", since we have Christ. The Bible says, "they will know you by your love" (John 13:35). Shouldn't there be a place where people can go to see what a healthy standard of love looks like? A place where people can honestly say (put the topic of divorce/separation aside for a second)....."that's not healthy"......"that's not loving". There's a difference between a person losing their temper and throwing something across the room (not aimed at anyone) and someone that has an abusive pattern of behavior (conflict resolution avoidance is a huge part of that). IMO.....it'd be helpful if there were freedom to discuss all this.

Hi Mkgal1,

I'm not getting what you're saying. Would you please clarify? Are you saying you can't discuss healthy love dynamics and working through problems in the Married Couples forum?

Faithfully,

 

[MessianicMommy]

Separation can be advised. Separation gives several courses of action that might positively affect a marriage that is not possible while still living together. But it carries the condition of still being (and acting) married.

In most cases this would be wonderful and workable advice.

So maybe this is the advice we can lean on, for those we feel are in a situation that is unlivable?

Advising a person to separate from an abusive spouse is quite profitable, for many reasons, including the fact that it is Scriptural. Can we not just go with that, for future issues? That would allow members with experience in this area to express their views, without turning towards the divorce option, at least here in the forums.

Is that a feasible option?

In an abuse situation however, this may not be a workable situation. . . as mentioned before. There are not the same protections for a spouse who is being stalked, harrassed or beaten until they take the steps required to actually fully cut that person out of their life.

I know that here, there are almost no protections whatsoever for a woman leaving an abusive spouse until she files divorce proceedings. In three or four of the states I last lived in, it's exactly the same. If she's at a shelter and he finds her, the only thing she can do is not go with him and file a complaint - what happens after she leaves is all in the realm of "well, they're still married.." (aka, I didn't see/hear it, it is behind closed doors, it won't be prosecuted)

It really is a quandry.

Another forum I'm on has taken measures to protect the women on the forum undergoing this and has enabled everyone to know where to get educated on the issue, who to direct to the conversation and what to and not to advise, as well as posting in several prominent areas where to get help - not just promoting DV education in October.

This is one of the reasons that MKGal and myself had begun posting about DV and providing books and websites for women to evaluate if this is information that they or someone they love need.

Would not something like that be fully possible here in the Married forums?

 

[motherprayer]

A married woman can file for a PFA against her husband, which will protect her. She doesn't have to file for divorce in order to get it. That will offer her the protection she needs if she is facing an abuser.

Also, women's shelters take in married women, and most don't require any paperwork on the situation, just the woman's word.

 

[ValleyGal]

A married woman can file for a PFA against her husband, which will protect her. She doesn't have to file for divorce in order to get it. That will offer her the protection she needs if she is facing an abuser.

Also, women's shelters take in married women, and most don't require any paperwork on the situation, just the woman's word.

What is a PFA? Is it a protective order issued by a court? They don't protect. Papers don't protect. Judges don't protect. Even police don't protect - unless they happen to be there when an abuser is. And even then, it's only for physical safety. None of that addresses mental, emotional, spiritual abuse, etc. Personally, I was advised to go underground. No one except my family and best friend knew where I was. I was there for a year, when it was finally safe (because he had a new wife to beat on).

 

[MessianicMommy]

Yes...a shelter will take anyone if they aren't full up. If they have handicapped accessibility.

There aren't many DV shelters for men. There are but three or so here in Germany, none anywhere near my area.

A PFA is just a piece of paper. It doesn't do a whole lot.

 

[motherprayer]

That is the only real protection offered by the state in these situations, divorced or not. I know PFAs don't do much, I had one. Abusers don't think anything of them. However, what I was saying was, regarding advising separation instead of divorce, there isn't much difference in what the state has to offer between the two.

 

[ValleyGal]

Where I live, there are women's shelters - none for men - but they are only for physical DV and not for mental/emotional abuse.

I don't think the CF policy is about this, though, because it states we can promote divorce in cases where there is physical danger. My concerns are more about the mental, emotional abuse, manipulation, gaslighting - the things that beat women (and men) down to a mental pulp, putting them at risk for suicide, depression, anxiety disorders, eating disorders, and a host of other potential problems. The person is "safe" physically, but in reality, they may not really be safe.

I like what MKGal says about love. Marriage is supposed to be about mutual, reciprocated love. If one is hated, if there is ongoing and/or escalating resentment, if there is a hard heart, if there is constant unresolved bickering, if there is, in short, lack of love on an ongoing basis, isnt' that a reason (biblically) to consider separation and/or divorce as an option? God does not call us to remain in a marriage that is not reciprocal. He demonstrated that when he divorced Israel. So while I agree that it should be a last resort, I do believe that it sometimes needs to be an option worth considering, especially when there are children involved....what messages are we sending them? Are we protecting them?

We are to love God first. But the second commandment is also important....to love others AS WELL AS ourselves. Are we loving ourselves if we stay married to someone who misuses us, manipulates us, puts us down, and destroys our spirit? No. And if we do not love ourselves, is that really respecting/loving the God who created us?

 

[mkgal1]

I know that here, there are almost no protections whatsoever for a woman leaving an abusive spouse until she files divorce proceedings. In three or four of the states I last lived in, it's exactly the same. If she's at a shelter and he finds her, the only thing she can do is not go with him and file a complaint - what happens after she leaves is all in the realm of "well, they're still married.." (aka, I didn't see/hear it, it is behind closed doors, it won't be prosecuted)

This is true in California. As it's been said previously, there are different sets of laws between a married couple (which "separated" is considered, "married") and a couple that's filed for divorce. A separation only can leave either spouse to be vulnerable to financial abuse or other abuse (there is equal access to bank accounts, for instance).

 

[Mrs. Luther073082]

Anybody that thinks verbal abuse is not dangerous is sorely mistaken. When I was in an abusive relationship, my ex's abuse was mostly verbal/emotional up until shortly before I finally left him. The OP of the thread that triggered this discussion mentioned some things her husband said to her that sounded much like the things my ex said to me. However, SOME of the things she mentioned (him showing her pictures of other women and talking about cheating on her) were extremes I did not experience with my ex. I was mostly told I couldn't do anything right, was lazy, would never finish school or amount to anything, would never be able to get anybody else if I left him, would be a bad mother if I ever had children, etc. Even without being told about being cheated on like the OP in the other thread, I was already suicidal (I had made a will, had a detailed plan of how to do it, etc). One day, I must have indicated as much to my ex. His response to that was to grab one of his guns out of the closet and hand it to me, telling me to go ahead and do it. When I left him, the extent of physical things he had done were to grab me by my arms one time and also to have shoved me to the floor in our apartment (an event where the neighbors wanted to call the police and I told them not to). He had put me in danger in other ways, however - for example, one time I had a panic attack in Old Navy and we had to leave the store. His response to my panic attack was to drive around like an enraged maniac through Atlanta, putting us both in danger and everybody else in our path in danger, too.

I don't see how anybody could recommend anything less than separation from someone who is abusive. When there is adultery involved in an abusive situation - frankly, I think it is a blessing in disguise and I think there absolutely should be advice for divorce and nothing less than that - ever.

 

[motherprayer]

I don't see how anybody could recommend anything less than separation from someone who is abusive. When there is adultery involved in an abusive situation - frankly, I think it is a blessing in disguise and I think there absolutely should be advice for divorce and nothing less than that - ever.

I absolutely agree with your entire post. Verbal abuse is SO damaging

I highlighted this, because it isn't against the rules to recommend separation here in the forums. So we could come to a reasonable compromise with the understanding that while divorce cannot be promoted except in cases of physical danger, separation can be in situations where the marital relationship has become toxic.

Is that feasible?

 

[ValleyGal]

I absolutely agree with your entire post. Verbal abuse is SO damaging

I highlighted this, because it isn't against the rules to recommend separation here in the forums. So we could come to a reasonable compromise with the understanding that while divorce cannot be promoted except in cases of physical danger, separation can be in situations where the marital relationship has become toxic.

Is that feasible?

I think the problem keeps coming back to the fact that separation does not offer the protection that divorce does, since they are still considered married. that's the problem....not whether we can promote divorce. And for me, the issue is not so much about separating or divorcing from a physical abuser, but also from someone who is not safe from emotional or mental damage. For me, it's not just about physical safety.

Imo, CF should support policies that are honouring to God. Does it honour God to advocate anyone staying in a marriage who is going through any kind of abuse? Not IMO. We are human beings, not litter boxes. If we do not love ourselves, we are basically saying we do not love God. Why? Because we are God's creation, and we honour his creation when we care for ourselves. It is not caring for ourselves (or to an abuser to let him or her remain in their sin without consequences) or our children when we stay in abusive situations, whether physical safety is an issue or not.

I consider the love imperative. Love is always right. We just need to figure out priority in who to love, and what love looks like in each situation. Who are we loving when we recommend an abused person stay in an abusive marriage? And even if we don't recommend staying with the abuser, who are we loving if we only recommend separation (since there are no protections because they are still married)?