Controversial Issue: The Cross

[The Thadman]

Yet another controversial issue poll from your friendly neighborhood Spiderm---er ... you get the picture.

The Cross: Pagan symbol or symbol of faith?

We're all familiar with the story of how the cross became incorporated into the Christian religion:

*
Constantine's Vision

In the first decade of the fourth century AD, six men vied for the leadership of Rome, among them Maxentius (proclaimed emperor by the Roman Praetorian Guard) and Constantine the Great. In 312, Constantine advanced across the Alps toward an army commanded by Maxentius and challenged him at the Mulvian bridge over the Tiber. On the afternoon before the legendary battle, Constantine had a vision: a flaming cross outlined against the sun, emblazoned with the Greek words "En toutoi nika" (In this sign you shall conquer). Then, as he slept that night, a voice addressed him in a dream, commanding him to have his soldiers mark the chi rho (the monogram for Christ) upon their shields. Constantine obeyed, attacked Maxentius, and won.

(The words "In this sign you shall conquer" are often rendered in their Latin form as: "In hoc signo vinces.")

Constantine ("Constantine the Great"), (c. 285-337) Roman emperor of the Western Roman empire (312-24), emperor at Byzantium (322-37) (noted for his conversion to Christianity, his foundation of Constantinople (now Istanbul) in 324, and for his edict of Milan (323))

(Sources: Little, Brown Book of Anecdotes)

© Anecdotage.com: Famous People. Funny Stories. Funny Anecdotes.

Before the cross, which was actually rejected by pre-Constantinian Christians, the most popular Christian symbol was the ichthys, or fish, which constituted a small greeting ritual whereby one would draw the first half and, if the person you met was Christian, he would know enough to draw the second half.

Also of note, the cross was previously used in Mythraic cult worship, an initiate becoming a full-fledged "soldier" by having a cross burned into their forehead, and other uses of the cross mimic the post-Constantinian adoption of Christianity.

Additionally, the cross has been part of all sorts of crazy stuff:

http://www.blessitt.com/history.html




There were truly only two symbols that God had given to man as remembrances or tokens:

1) Circumcision. But I doubt that that would look good as a logo...

Genesis 17
11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin. It will be a token of a covenant between me and you.

2) Tzitzith. As a reminder not to sin, and a symbol never bowed down to or worshiped.

Numbers 1538 Speak to the children of Israel, and bid those who they make them tzitzith in the wings of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put on the tzitzith of each wing a blue cord: 39 and it shall be to you for a tzitzith, that you may look on it, and remember all the commandments of Yahweh, and do them; and that you not follow after your own heart and your own eyes, after which you use to play the prostitute; 40 that you may remember and do all my commandments, and be holy to your God. 41 I am YHWH your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am YHWH your God.

There were also other symbols that came up in the Tanakh, but were not tokens or remembrances:

The Brass Serpent. This was only for people to look upon and live if they were bitten by a snake. Unfortunately, it succumbed to worship:

2 Kings 18
1 Now it happened in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he began to reign; and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem: and his mother’s name was Abi the daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did that which was right in the eyes of Yahweh, according to all that David his father had done. 4 He removed the shrines, and broke the pillars, and cut down the Asherah: and he broke in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made; for to those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it; and he called it Nehushtan.

The Ark of the Covenant Where God regularly appeared as a column of clouds. The ark wasn't really a symbol more than a place to house the commandments, and although it lead the Hebrews into battle, it was never said to be a token or rememberance.

10 “They shall make an ark of acacia wood. Its length shall be two and a half cubits, its breadth a cubit and a half, and a cubit and a half its height. 11 You shall overlay it with pure gold. Inside and outside shall you overlay it, and shall make a gold molding around it. 12 You shall cast four rings of gold for it, and put them in its four feet. Two rings shall be on the one side of it, and two rings on the other side of it. 13 You shall make poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold. 14 You shall put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark to carry the ark. 15 The poles shall be in the rings of the ark. They shall not be taken from it. 16 You shall put the testimony which I shall give you into the ark. 17 You shall make a mercy seat of pure gold. Two and a half cubits shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. 18 You shall make two cherubim of hammered gold. You shall make them at the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 Make one cherub at the one end, and one cherub at the other end. You shall make the cherubim on its two ends of one piece with the mercy seat. 20 The cherubim shall spread out their wings upward, covering the mercy seat with their wings, with their faces toward one another. The faces of the cherubim shall be toward the mercy seat. 21 You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony that I will give you. 22 There I will meet with you, and I will tell you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the testimony, all that I command you for the children of Israel.

The cross, however, is a universally recognized symbol (in modern day) of Christianity. People have had visions of crosses, and many places use the cross to denote Jesus' sacrifice.

My question then is: What would be an acceptable symbol of Judeo-Christianity?

What thinkest thou?

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[ShirChadash]

I really prefer the fish or this MJ symbol

 

[Sephania]

Not sure what you mean by this steve

Judeo-Christianity?

Many Christians refer to there faith based on "Judeo -Christian" values, but I still see that as Christianity. So this poll to me is asking like another poster did about Christianity. If you are speaking of Messianics? that is different and I shall be able to answer that.

 

[iitb]

To be honest, I'm not a fan of symbols. The only "symbol" of our faith should be obedience.

 

[ShirChadash]

^ yeah, that! ditto. I don't wear symbols. I don't care for them by and large either. But I do like what the MJ symbol shows, so if I were going to go for one, that would be "it".

 

[Sephania]

Since we are talking symbols and another word for that might be signs does anyone have an opinion on what the "sign of the son of man" is as written in Matthew 24:30?

I personally think that the greatest sign the L-RD ever gave his people is the Sabbath, mostly I guess cause I am a girl and can't be circumcied so the Sabbath is for both sexes all ages.

 

[brentsbaby612]

I personally think that the greatest sign the L-RD ever gave his people is the Sabbath, mostly I guess cause I am a girl and can't be circumcied so the Sabbath is for both sexes all ages.

Actually, some African tribes circumcise there women too! I saw it on PBS! Not the actual circumsion!...well, it's pretty gross to think of so nevermind!

1) Circumcision. But I doubt that that would look good as a logo...

LOL..I don't even what to think of how to depict that!

To be honest, I'm not a fan of symbols. The only "symbol" of our faith should be obedience.

Very true Justin! Since we are talking about symbols, I've been trying to figure out how to get mine off. How do you hid your icon? Somebody please PM me or something. Hey, I'm not non-denominational! Thing keeps changing on me too! The other day it said I was pagan!!

 

[Talmidah]

I personally think that the greatest sign the L-RD ever gave his people is the Sabbath, mostly I guess cause I am a girl and can't be circumcied so the Sabbath is for both sexes all ages.

This made me laugh because my son is going the week after next to be circumcised. He is looking forward to it and he gloats to his sisters that they are not able to to it as well LOL

 

[The Thadman]

Not sure what you mean by this steve
Many Christians refer to there faith based on "Judeo -Christian" values, but I still see that as Christianity. So this poll to me is asking like another poster did about Christianity. If you are speaking of Messianics? that is different and I shall be able to answer that.

Within the context of the discussion I meant Messianics. Sorry about the ambiguity!

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[brentsbaby612]

This made me laugh because my son is going the week after next to be circumcised. He is looking forward to it and he gloats to his sisters that they are not able to to it as well LOL

We had a circumsion ceremony for our youngest son! It was done by a jewish rabbi who is also a pediatrician. He did it so well that David didn't even cry! How old is your son? If you don't mind me asking of course.

 

[Talmidah]

We had a circumsion ceremony for our youngest son! It was done by a jewish rabbi who is also a pediatrician. He did it so well that David didn't even cry! How old is your son? If you don't mind me asking of course.

He is 8 1/2. He'll have it done by a urologist, who also is a rabbi as well. He is so excited, albeit a little nervous

 

[simchat_torah]

To be honest, I'm not a fan of symbols. The only "symbol" of our faith should be obedience.

That's deep.

 

[Higher Truth]

Stevo said:

Controversial Issue: The Cross


Yet another controversial issue poll from your friendly neighborhood Spiderm---er ... you get the picture.

The Cross: Pagan symbol or symbol of faith?

We're all familiar with the story of how the cross became incorporated into the Christian religion:


Quote:

Constantine's Vision

In the first decade of the fourth century AD, six men vied for the leadership of Rome, among them Maxentius (proclaimed emperor by the Roman Praetorian Guard) and Constantine the Great. In 312, Constantine advanced across the Alps toward an army commanded by Maxentius and challenged him at the Mulvian bridge over the Tiber. On the afternoon before the legendary battle, Constantine had a vision: a flaming cross outlined against the sun, emblazoned with the Greek words "En toutoi nika" (In this sign you shall conquer). Then, as he slept that night, a voice addressed him in a dream, commanding him to have his soldiers mark the chi rho (the monogram for Christ) upon their shields. Constantine obeyed, attacked Maxentius, and won.

(The words "In this sign you shall conquer" are often rendered in their Latin form as: "In hoc signo vinces.")

Constantine ("Constantine the Great"), (c. 285-337) Roman emperor of the Western Roman empire (312-24), emperor at Byzantium (322-37) (noted for his conversion to Christianity, his foundation of Constantinople (now Istanbul) in 324, and for his edict of Milan (323))

(Sources: Little, Brown Book of Anecdotes)

© Anecdotage.com: Famous People. Funny Stories. Funny Anecdotes.


Before the cross, which was actually rejected by pre-Constantinian Christians, the most popular Christian symbol was the ichthys, or fish, which constituted a small greeting ritual whereby one would draw the first half and, if the person you met was Christian, he would know enough to draw the second half.

Also of note, the cross was previously used in Mythraic cult worship, an initiate becoming a full-fledged "soldier" by having a cross burned into their forehead, and other uses of the cross mimic the post-Constantinian adoption of Christianity.

HT:

Stevo,

There are some other facts that you may want to review. I posted some of them here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t85100&page=1

An earlier quote from the above thread:

Here are some questions that need to be answered:

How do we deal with this then? Did these first century Jewish believers just randomly choose to put a cross on these ossuaries for no reason?

A "head stone", found near the entrance to the first century catacomb, is inscribed with the sign of the cross.

Inside, the sign of the cross was found on numerous first-century coffins.

A first-century coffin bearing cross marks as it was found by archaeologist P. Bagatti in the catacomb on the Mt. of Olives.

"One coffin, also bearing cross marks on it, was inscribed with the name "Shlom-zion" followed by the designation "daughter of Simon the Priest."

In addition, he found one ossuary with crosses and the unusual name "Shappira" - which is a unique name not found in any other first-century writtings except for the Book of Acts (5:1).

All together, more than 100 first-century coffins were found on the Mount of Olives, many bearing additional names and cross marks.


HT:

The whole constantine- cross "theory", is one of the "highlights" of Michael Rood's "teaching". I think I would rather go with archaelogical evidence. As far as the pagan symbol argument, the same could be argued for the magen David.

 

[simchat_torah]

A "head stone", found near the entrance to the first century catacomb, is inscribed with the sign of the cross.

This headstone was in no way related to the catacomb. It was placed there at a later date.

A first-century coffin bearing cross marks as it was found by archaeologist P. Bagatti in the catacomb on the Mt. of Olives.

"One coffin, also bearing cross marks on it, was inscribed with the name "Shlom-zion" followed by the designation "daughter of Simon the Priest."
All together, more than 100 first-century coffins were found on the Mount of Olives, many bearing additional names and cross mark.

Most of these had crosses scrawled on them at much later dates. Christians of later centuries decided to bury their dead in these graves and 'christianized' many of the tombstones with crosses, and subsequently buried their dead (in coffins w/ crosses).

In addition, he found one ossuary with crosses and the unusual name "Shappira" - which is a unique name not found in any other first-century writtings except for the Book of Acts (5:1).

This is almost rather humorous as a proof.

Crosses have never been shown to have been used in worship prior to the fourth century.

One may argue that they were added for pure reasons vs. unpure reasons... but the fact remains they were never a part of the commonwealth worship of christians/messianic believers until the 4th century.

-Yafet

 

[Higher Truth]

Simchat said:

This headstone was in no way related to the catacomb. It was placed there at a later date.


HT:

Proof please.


Simchat:

Most of these had crosses scrawled on them at much later dates. Christians of later centuries decided to bury their dead in these graves and 'christianized' many of the tombstones with crosses, and subsequently buried their dead (in coffins w/ crosses).

HT:

Proof please.


Simchat:


This is almost rather humorous as a proof.

Crosses have never been shown to have been used in worship prior to the fourth century.

One may argue that they were added for pure reasons vs. unpure reasons... but the fact remains they were never a part of the commonwealth worship of christians/messianic believers until the 4th century.

HT:

Proof please.

 

[simchat_torah]

HT:

Proof please.

Be my guest... you did make the original claims

As far as the pagan symbol argument, the same could be argued for the magen David.

Finding something similar in history vs. finding a direct link are two completely different ideas.

The cross has a possible direct link to paganism, while the mogan david only finds other similar pagan artifacts that resemble the mogan david. No direct link has ever been shown linking the mogan david to a pagan symbol.

So... no, they arguments are nothing alike at all.

 

[RVincent]

The egg: UNACCEPTABLE.

It is an ancient symbol of fertility, along with the rabbit. Fertility rights were practiced by many ancients, which is referenced in the Bible as Ashtoreth (the Goddess Ishtar), the Asherah (a paleolithic [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]), or as we say it today, Easter.

"But the preacher said the egg symbloizes the Trinity."

Oh, the preacher said...well, forgive me.

Edited: Oops! Am i allowed to post here? I apologize if I'm not.

 

[simchat_torah]

I would like to make one thing clear:

I am not conclusively stating that the cross comes from paganism. The likelyhood is about as good as you're going to get when making conjectures based on historical evidence, but there is no conclusive proof. However, there has never been any appeal in Judaism to make use of 'torture' devices as symbols of worship. Had Y'shua died on an electric chair, I doubt I would be walking around with an electric chair on my necklace.

Even the possibility of a pagan link should cause us to drop it as a symbol as it is of no consequence either way if it isn't pagan. However, people's utter desire to cling to the object shows a love and passion for the symbol.

I do not want to love a symbol, even the mogan david. I use the mogan david to represent who I am, but there is no need in Judaism (or me for that matter) to desperately cling to a symbol.

-yafet

 

[Higher Truth]

Simchat:

Be my guest... you did make the original claims

HT:

My links are already posted in the earlier thread I cited..... Your move ;-)

 

[Flavius]

I doubt I would be walking around with an electric chair on my necklace.

I actually have an electric chair necklace,it's a Texas thang.