Controversial Issue: The Cross

[brentsbaby612]

Quote:
Originally Posted by: simchat_torah

I doubt I would be walking around with an electric chair on my necklace.

I actually have an electric chair necklace,it's a Texas thang.

LOL...Me Too!

 

[brentsbaby612]

However, there has never been any appeal in Judaism to make use of 'torture' devices as symbols of worship

I understand what you are talking about. I've never been comfortable with the catholic crucifixes that depict Yeshua/Jesus in pain. I have mixed feeling however with the cross and I'm not quite sure yet were I stand. While it was the harsh and violent way he died, it was also the way our sins were repaid. It was victory over evil! And that seems like something that should be celebrated.
But I'm still not sure, I'll have speak with my husband about it.

 

[LADY DI]

Shalom!!!!

Indeed another controversial issue!!!

I come from the opposite end. I DO wear a cross. The reason: its a reminder of my redemption. It reminds me that I alone cannot do anything to achieve salvation on my own.. It is a reminder of the price that Yeshua paid for me. I dont believe that the cross that I wear has powers or can ward off evil spirits. It is simply a symbol of my faith.
I get a little irritated over the fact that people try to imply that certain symbols have pagan origins.
I cant help but think that it was a CROSS that Yeshua was crucified on. But I hear people say that Christians borrowed certain symbols from pagan sources.
They say that they borrowed the cross from Mithra worship or from the Egyptian ankh.
But then again, there are those who claim that the whole story of the resurrection of Yeshua was taken from the Mithra mythology. I dont buy that at all!!!
My point is, that I DONT care what Mithra or the Egyptians did with their similar looking symbols. They dont mean the same as what mine means to me.
An example that I'd like to use is the ugly symbol of the " swastika" . We all know of its history. For millions of Europian Jews this was a symbol of horror and death. But the stange thing is , this same symbol is found here in America in caves in the southwest. The Hopi indians have a similar symbol ( but reversed) that has a totally different meaning to them. People who have toured these caves are taken back, thinking that it is graffiti,but it is explained to the tourist that it not what they think its is. Im sure the Hopi people were saddened to see how their symbol was used by the Nazis.
And then the fish symbol: to me it just reminds me of the early chuch, how they used this symbol ( drawing it in the sand). I have heard of the connestions of the symbol to paganism i.e.
Dagon worship and also goddess worship. Agian not my thing.
My question is why would the early church (believers) resort to pagan symbols???
These were the ones who were on fire for G-D!!!
Philo of Alexandia ( a 1st. cenertry Jewish philosopher) wrote of these people ( the first believers) as being very commited to the faith.
They were the ones who went to their deaths for their faith and to think that they would blatantly intermingle paganism with their faith????

I hope I didnt offened anyone, I not here to debate or cause problems.
Im ONLY giving my own opinion.

I feel if you dont feel a need for symbols thats great. Were all different and I respect others beliefs and opinions. I dont NEED these symbols, I just like them!!!
In Yeshua,
DI

 

[Sephania]

This made me laugh because my son is going the week after next to be circumcised. He is looking forward to it and he gloats to his sisters that they are not able to to it as well LOL

 

[Sephania]

The whole constantine- cross "theory", is one of the "highlights" of Michael Rood's "teaching". I think I would rather go with archaelogical evidence. As far as the pagan symbol argument, the same could be argued for the magen David.

And I would argue against that. I too had a quandry over symbols and not being a jewelry wearing woman ( please guys don't fight over me I'm already taken!) did much research into all these symbols. I did not want something pagan conotations hanging off my neck, there are enough necks displaying things that are against G-d in the world. All of the symbols discused already had somewhere along the line in history pagan attachments to them and seems to render them void as it seemed that the pagan attachment always came before the "G-dly one" until one day I just up and asked the L-RD about it, this is what he showed me about "Davids Star".

Exodus 28
1 And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons.
2 And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty.
3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.
6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.
7 It shall have the two shoulderpieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together.
8 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.
9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:
10 Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.
11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.
12 And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD upon his two shoulders for a memorial.
13 And thou shalt make ouches of gold;
14 And two chains of pure gold at the ends; of wreathen work shalt thou make them, and fasten the wreathen chains to the ouches.
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.
21 And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.
22 And thou shalt make upon the breastplate chains at the ends of wreathen work of pure gold.
23 And thou shalt make upon the breastplate two rings of gold, and shalt put the two rings on the two ends of the breastplate.
24 And thou shalt put the two wreathen chains of gold in the two rings which are on the ends of the breastplate.
25 And the other two ends of the two wreathen chains thou shalt fasten in the two ouches, and put them on the shoulderpieces of the ephod before it.
26 And thou shalt make two rings of gold, and thou shalt put them upon the two ends of the breastplate in the border thereof, which is in the side of the ephod inward.
27 And two other rings of gold thou shalt make, and shalt put them on the two sides of the ephod underneath, toward the forepart thereof, over against the other coupling thereof, above the curious girdle of the ephod.
28 And they shall bind the breastplate by the rings thereof unto the rings of the ephod with a lace of blue, that it may be above the curious girdle of the ephod, and that the breastplate be not loosed from the ephod.
29 And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the LORD continually.
30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.
31 And thou shalt make the robe of the ephod all of blue.
32 And there shall be an hole in the top of it, in the midst thereof: it shall have a binding of woven work round about the hole of it, as it were the hole of an habergeon, that it be not rent.
33 And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, round about the hem thereof; and bells of gold between them round about:
34 A golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about. ( Tyed to the tztzit?)
35 And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he cometh out, that he die not.
36 And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.
37 And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.
38 And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.
39 And thou shalt embroider the coat of fine linen, and thou shalt make the mitre of fine linen, and thou shalt make the girdle of needlework.
40 And for Aaron's sons thou shalt make coats, and thou shalt make for them girdles, and bonnets shalt thou make for them, for glory and for beauty.
41 And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.
42 And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:
43 And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.


The decoration for the Cohanim


Deuteronomy 8:8
A land of wheat, and barley, and vines, and fig trees, and pomegranates; a land of oil olive, and honey;

One of the seven species from the precious land of G-d


1 Kings 7:20
And the chapiters upon the two pillars had pomegranates also above, over against the belly which was by the network: and the pomegranates were two hundred in rows round about upon the other chapiter.

Decoration for the Holy Temple, built upon the pattern G-d gave to David.

Song of Solomon 4:3
Thy lips are like a thread of scarlet, and thy speech is comely: thy temples are like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks.

Which piece?

Do you see it yet?

How about now?

Yes the L-Rd showed me through His word and in observation that from the third day of creation this "symbol" was in existance, two days before the fish were even created. He made it a mitvah to be a adornment to his High Priest, the one that would come before him, and also to decorate his holy temple which was patterned after the one in heaven.

I guess you can't ask for anymore concrete proof than that?

One other thing about the pomegranate, In Israel it comes to harvest during Sukkot and is used in many a sukkah to deocrate it, it also by tradition holds 613 seeds which is the number that Rambam determined to be the number of Mitzot contained in Torah.

 

[brentsbaby612]

Shalom!!!!

Indeed another controversial issue!!!

I come from the opposite end. I DO wear a cross. The reason: its a reminder of my redemption. It reminds me that I alone cannot do anything to achieve salvation on my own.. It is a reminder of the price that Yeshua paid for me. I dont believe that the cross that I wear has powers or can ward off evil spirits. It is simply a symbol of my faith.
I get a little irritated over the fact that people try to imply that certain symbols have pagan origins.
I cant help but think that it was a CROSS that Yeshua was crucified on. But I hear people say that Christians borrowed certain symbols from pagan sources.
They say that they borrowed the cross from Mithra worship or from the Egyptian ankh.
But then again, there are those who claim that the whole story of the resurrection of Yeshua was taken from the Mithra mythology. I dont buy that at all!!!
My point is, that I DONT care what Mithra or the Egyptians did with their similar looking symbols. They dont mean the same as what mine means to me.
An example that I'd like to use is the ugly symbol of the " swastika" . We all know of its history. For millions of Europian Jews this was a symbol of horror and death. But the stange thing is , this same symbol is found here in America in caves in the southwest. The Hopi indians have a similar symbol ( but reversed) that has a totally different meaning to them. People who have toured these caves are taken back, thinking that it is graffiti,but it is explained to the tourist that it not what they think its is. Im sure the Hopi people were saddened to see how their symbol was used by the Nazis.
And then the fish symbol: to me it just reminds me of the early chuch, how they used this symbol ( drawing it in the sand). I have heard of the connestions of the symbol to paganism i.e.
Dagon worship and also goddess worship. Agian not my thing.
My question is why would the early church (believers) resort to pagan symbols???
These were the ones who were on fire for G-D!!!
Philo of Alexandia ( a 1st. cenertry Jewish philosopher) wrote of these people ( the first believers) as being very commited to the faith.
They were the ones who went to their deaths for their faith and to think that they would blatantly intermingle paganism with their faith????

I hope I didnt offened anyone, I not here to debate or cause problems.
Im ONLY giving my own opinion.

I feel if you dont feel a need for symbols thats great. Were all different and I respect others beliefs and opinions. I dont NEED these symbols, I just like them!!!
In Yeshua,
DI

I believe I agree with you on the most part. I studied on this last night. I found soooo many scriptures that speak of the cross as a emblem of the death of the messiah and the sins He died for.
Preaching of the cross is to them foolisness 1 Co 1:18, then is offence of the cross then ceased Gal 5:11, suffer persecution for the cross of Christ Gal 6:12, glory save in the cross of Christ Gal 6:14,he that taketh not his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me Mat 10:38
And these are just to name a few. Sometimes in our zeal to be different, and our hatred of all that offends HaShem. We reject some of that in which praises Him.

Shalom/ BB

 

[simchat_torah]

After some deep thought, I realized... I'm a guest here at Christian Forums. I will not be participating in this thread as it will be a great offense for me to present my position.


Shalom,
yafet

 

[P_G]

You know I don't think that a "symbol" can be holy or unholy. It is an identifying mark no more and no less.

Are people from Arkansas instantly unholy because the state emblem is a razorback? Well of course not. The Cross the Ithchus the Magen David all say some thing about us, identify us place us in a group.

Look if I see a person wearing a cross that has a corpus on it then I can safely make the assumption they have a Catholic backround, a Magen David well my guess is they have a Jewish background.

then there is me who will sometimes wear a small Magen David with a cross in the middle of it. That says something too. Same goes if I wear an Ichtus.

Simchat why don't you post please?
I know you are going to say some thing that most people wont like.
But my brother you always have something well thought out and substantial to say. And I would like to hear it!

We may not always - (Heck we may NEVER) agree but you always have my respect!

Blessings

Pastor George

 

[ShirChadash]

And then the fish symbol: to me it just reminds me of the early chuch, how they used this symbol ( drawing it in the sand). I have heard of the connestions of the symbol to paganism i.e

Interesting, Di -- I hadn't heard that. Anyway, I too think of the use of the symbol in the sand -- it was an identifying symbol.

My point is, that I DONT care what Mithra or the Egyptians did with their similar looking symbols. They dont mean the same as what mine means to me.

Ah, but there's the rub, as I see it. Our G-d DOES care what symbols were used and how they were used in worship by other pagan groups, and He explicitly declares that those who call upon Him will not use such pagan symbols in their worship of Him.

I feel if you dont feel a need for symbols thats great. Were all different and I respect others beliefs and opinions. I dont NEED these symbols, I just like them!!!

And yet another disclaimer just to be sure I am not misrepresenting myself...

Anything I say about any topic... I say for *me*. I truly do NOT judge other people for where they are at, what they are currently growing through, what they currently believe as re: a great many things of faith. I don't have a problem with anyone wanting or liking or even needing a symbol of their faith. I just bought and am waiting on a lil' pendant (necklace) of Yerushalayim . I pray for the peace of Yerushalayim and hope my new necklace will generate questions from others, opening the door to me being able to discuss our responsibility to lift up Israel in prayer... and if it doesn't generate questions... well at least I'll have a lil' reminder to me to pray!











.

 

[brentsbaby612]

then there is me who will sometimes wear a small Magen David with a cross in the middle of it. That says something too. Same goes if I wear an Ichtus.

I have this necklace too! I like it. It says something about me and generates questions from others. Plus it was a sentamental gift from my husband, that is the main reason I wear it.

You know I don't think that a "symbol" can be holy or unholy. It is an identifying mark no more and no less.

I agree with you on this point too. Just because I see someone were a cross, It do not mean that they are actually christian.

 

[brentsbaby612]

Ah, but there's the rub, as I see it. Our G-d DOES care what symbols were used and how they were used in worship by other pagan groups, and He explicitly declares that those who call upon Him will not use such pagan symbols in their worship of Him.

Very true! :o

 

[ShirChadash]

I don't know about that BB. I really don't. Take a gander at this article -- which is, IMO, well worth anyone's time to read, even if you disagree with it -- it's more than a little thought-provoking.

http://www.eaec.org/bibleanswers/easter.htm

A quote from the article:

Another custom that is closely connected with the Easter season is the baking and eating of "hot cross buns." Again, this appears at first glance to be a Christian custom because of the shape or marking on the buns of the cross. But, as we have seen earlier, the cross symbol is not a Christian symbol. On the other hand, as early as the days of Cecrops, founder of Athens (1500 B.C.), such buns were used in the worship of the queen of heaven. "The history of the cross bun goes back to... the LIBA offered to Astarte" -- the Queen of Heaven. In the days of Jeremiah, God rebuked His people for the practice in which "the children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make CAKES to the queen of heaven... Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place" (Jeremiah 7:18-20; 44:17-19, 25). Now in these two chapters of Jeremiah, the word translated "cake" is "kavvan" meaning "bun." (In all other places in the Bible, except in these two chapters, the word cakes is translated from different words.) And so here was some type of special cake (or bun) as part of the Mother Goddess worship. These buns were very possibly made in the shape of a cross or marked with a cross, for this symbol was regarded as sacred to her.

b'Yeshua

 

[P_G]

I have this necklace too! I like it. It says something about me and generates questions from others. Plus it was a sentamental gift from my husband, that is the main reason I wear it.



I agree with you on this point too. Just because I see someone were a cross, It do not mean that they are actually christian.

I recently saw a picture in the newspaper of a Miss Paris Hilton, who from what I read and see leads a rather dubious lifestyle in the morality department. Anyway along with her rather skimpy attire was a brilliant diamond encrusted cross around her neck. (Now mind you I would think that if you had the money enough to wear that expensive jewlery you should be able to afford some clothing that was proper fitting and too would offer some protection against frostbite)

Any way the cross has not convinced me that this Miss Paris Hilton is a Christian bible beleiving or otherwise. I think she just sees this cross as jewlery.


Blessings

Pastor George

PS To all network TV type people if you would like to make a show called "A simple life 3" I know of a missionary compound in North Eastern Pennsylvania, where the poor little rich girls would be able to spend hours in fundamentalist churches and Messianic worship groups as well as learn the fine point if hand coppying the Bible from a pastors wife. Where they too could learn to dress very conservatively.

 

[shmuel]

Just a comment about the quote

Now in these two chapters of Jeremiah, the word translated "cake" is "kavvan" meaning "bun." (In all other places in the Bible, except in these two chapters, the word cakes is translated from different words.) And so here was some type of special cake (or bun) as part of the Mother Goddess worship. These buns were very possibly made in the shape of a cross or marked with a cross, for this symbol was regarded as sacred to her.

This is the only place in the Tanakh where this word occurs (actually it only occurs in the plural, kavvanim). The root is uncertain but thought to be kaf-vav-nun, which in the hifil can mean prepare food. The meaning is determined by its useage in these passages where it appears to refer to sacrificial cakes. There is no knowledge that these are buns or have a cross on them.

I would like to see some documentation that hot cross buns are related to the practice in Jerimiah.

 

[Sephania]

Does anyone have any comments about the Magen David?

 

[brentsbaby612]

*

 

[brentsbaby612]

*

 

[ShirChadash]

I haven't looked much into the Magen David, myself -- I don't really want to wear one as I fear it would identify me to others as a Jew, and I personally am cautious not to claim that. But I thought Yafet had posted a really good article dealing with the history of the Magen at one point on here. *pulls hair* I can't seem to search well on here lately, but I will try to look for the post that has the link

BB -- the only point I very much wanted to make about the symbol is that the author makes an excellent discussion of Ezekiel 8, and how it is that our G-d shows in that chapter that He is, indeed, a jealous G-d and that anything pagan that was used in worship should never be incorporated or "made over" to fit into our worship, as believers.

 

[P_G]

My problem however is that I fear hypocrisy. I will not celebrate Christmas or Easter, but I will wear a cross. Hmmmmmmm.
Just something I'm worried about. What do you think PG? Do you or anyone else have any advice?

Sis I always wear something that identifys me as tied to Y'sreal. But also that ties me to the messiah. If I wear anything at all. In service you will notice I wear a tallit but also a cross. I do not don a kippot bececause I feel that identifies me as a Jew, which I am not.

My prefference is the Icthus which I actually have sewn into a tallit

I think you have to do what the spirit testefies to you really Because ultimately that is who you will answer to not me nor any person reading this thread.

Maybe look for a cross with a magen david in it or vice versa. They are very lovely. But as for this being pagan. Nah I don't think so the cross was a roman execution device. And be it an accurate depiction of that or not it still is what it is.

If you were making the argument that a cross was a ghoulish thing that I could buy

Blessings

PG

 

[ShirChadash]

I'm sure much tot he annoyance of my fellow forum members ( ) I found some threads that seem pertinent to this one and have bumped them.

I'm still looking for one though!

*shrug* I can't find it. Nevermind. Yafet -- somewhere in all your bookmarks maybe you have the info on the history of the Magen David and the article you (I'm sure it was you!) linked to, long ago on this forum. You wanna post it, I know you do

Please? If you know of the one I mean, or even another good one?