Controlling

[TheGirlOnFire]

I'd like to add one more dimension to this:

If I ever lose my mind and use my partner as a punching bag (not something I intend to do, but hypothetically speaking) I wish she runs as soon as I do that. It'd be best:

A) For her, for obvious reasons.
B) For me, because I wouldn't get away with being violent. I'd have to face consequences of my actions.
C) For everyone who cares about her, it'll be a huge relief if she doesn't stay.
D) For her next partner, because if she leaves fast, she'll have better chance of getting over our messed up relationship.
E) For everyone who's going to hear the story in the future, it's much better story than one that would have gone on for years. Especially if she found someone better after it.
F) For the balance of justice in the universe; guys who beat up their women, simply don't deserve them.

Abuse just isn't physical though

 

[bhsmte]

Abuse just isn't physical though

Correct.

Many mental health professionals believe, emotional abuse can be just as damaging and sometimes worse, than physical abuse.

 

[Swan7]

Correct.

Many mental health professionals believe, emotional abuse can be just as damaging and sometimes worse, than physical abuse.

Highly agree, as one who has gone through it.

 

[blackribbon]

I'm just saying it's unBiblical. If you got a problem with it, take it up with God, not me.

It's not that I don't sympathize with those who have made poor choices in marriage but there are other Biblical solutions to deal with abusive or unfaithful spouses.

Actually, the Bible does address it and talk about it...even giving guidelines for when it is acceptable. I don't believe that divorce should be taken lightly but it isn't "unBiblical". Divorce is actually one of those Biblical solutions for unfaithfulness.

How far back in history do you go to find the "perfect" society that had no marriage/divorce issues? What time period/society had everything right and puts us to shame? This kind of sounds like the people who think "men should dress like men and women should dress like women"....um, in what historical context? I don't see many men wearing robes to church like Jesus wore.... Heck, maybe we should go back to original man and dress naked or sew together a few furs....(I wonder how that would go over on Sunday morning?) To believe that we are "falling apart" as a society requires you to be able to state a time when everything was better and close to perfect...a high point. People are people. We don't really have any "new" problems. The main problem is that we don't love God and we don't follow His commandment to love our neighbors unconditionally.

 

[redblue22]

So, if my girl says I can't see other women, then she's controlling. I am not controlling. She is free to do as she wants, but that doesn't mean there are no consequences.

 

[blackribbon]

These verses are not talking about divorce.


Paul is talking about a married person getting saved and their spouse still being unsaved. If they refuse to stay with you because of it and leave, then you can let them go. But here is the thing most Christians miss: If you do end up getting divorced, the Bible says, you cannot remarry, otherwise you are committing adultery!

In regards to abuse, if a man is truly, physically abusing a woman, then you can consider getting the law to deal with them for assault or battery or whatever. But it's still no grounds for divorce. Separation for a while perhaps, sure. But you are still married and if either one remarries, it is considered adultery.

Now some people refer to the verses which say fornication is the exception (such as Matthew 19:9) but they also misunderstand what this means (and newer Bible versions change this to "adultery" to better fit their agenda). Fornication means they would be unclean before marriage and the examples the Bible gives of this in the Old Testament are of a woman who was presented as a virgin, ended up lying about it and the newly wed husband found out that she was not a virgin so they stoned her and the marriage was undone.

But even if your spouse commits adultery (actual intercourse), if this is proven and made known, the penalty was death! And death of your spouse is the only real exception to getting remarried. Although in the NT age of grace, I believe we are to try and forgive even this act. Especially if you have children.

Now I know a lot of people on here are divorced (and their spouse has not died). And this is a hard teaching to remain single, as Jesus said Himself after talking about it in Matthew 19:11. But this is what God ordains.

Do you hold the requirement to stay together & married higher than the requirement to love/respect your spouse? If you haven't upheld the most basic promise of the contract, are you really bound by the all the clauses and exceptions that are dependent on that premise?

Marriage is really the ultimate contract in your mind? The one that can't be broken. More important than treating your spouse with respect and showing God's love? It is okay to allow your children to grow up with the image of a father who hurts other people and the woman says it is "okay" by staying? We form our first mental images of God the Father from our experiences with our own earthly father. What happens when the abuse starts spreading to the elderly parents or to the children? What if it is sexual assault of the child? The marriage contract still trumps the concept of caring for those around us and our obligation to take care of the helpless? Our obligation to remain married is really more important that our obligation to protect our children...even if that protection is just from forming a warped version of what marriage should looks like?

I do believe that as a society we bale on marriage too soon and for frivolous things. But I also do not believe that it is the highest of all contracts which requires protecting it even when it damages people.

Read your Bible. Was Jesus' message really about "obeying the law" and all of God's rules...or was it about building loving relationships? Is the Bible a love story or a rule book?

 

[blackribbon]

N
He wanted to move but she refused. She got a job here but he still felt it was best to move back home up north so he held off. Well she then took the initiative and divorced him and took over everything. Meanwhile, she claimed it was all his fault and that he is worthless.

So why didn't HE MOVE to where he could get a job? Men didn't used to wait for the women to "allow" them to move. And much of history is about men moving ahead to get a job and get settled before returning home to collect their families. Not moving didn't protect his marriage so maybe he owns a little bit of the responsibility here.

 

[Bristecom]

Actually, the Bible does address it and talk about it...even giving guidelines for when it is acceptable. I don't believe that divorce should be taken lightly but it isn't "unBiblical". Divorce is actually one of those Biblical solutions for unfaithfulness.

How far back in history do you go to find the "perfect" society that had no marriage/divorce issues? What time period/society had everything right and puts us to shame? This kind of sounds like the people who think "men should dress like men and women should dress like women"....um, in what historical context? I don't see many men wearing robes to church like Jesus wore.... Heck, maybe we should go back to original man and dress naked or sew together a few furs....(I wonder how that would go over on Sunday morning?) To believe that we are "falling apart" as a society requires you to be able to state a time when everything was better and close to perfect...a high point. People are people. We don't really have any "new" problems. The main problem is that we don't love God and we don't follow His commandment to love our neighbors unconditionally.

If you don't think our society and families are falling apart more than ever (unless you want to compare to civilizations like Sodom and Gomorrah), then I don't know what to tell you. I'm surprised that as a Christian, you cannot see it. All you have to do is a little research on divorce statistics in the US in the past 100 years for example. That's not to say divorce has always been around - of course it has - people always want to find a way out of their marriages.

Again, read Matthew 19:3-11. The pharisees tried to make provision for divorce but Christ had none of it. His will is clear; He hates it! So again I say, if you have a problem with that or think that God's way is outdated, then take that up with God. Trying to compare the sanctity of marriage to wearing robes is a straw man argument.

 

[MarkSB]

If you don't think our society and families are falling apart more than ever (unless you want to compare to civilizations like Sodom and Gomorrah), then I don't know what to tell you. I'm surprised that as a Christian, you cannot see it. All you have to do is a little research on divorce statistics in the US in the past 100 years for example. That's not to say divorce has always been around - of course it has - people always want to find a way out of their marriages.

Again, read Matthew 19:3-11. The pharisees tried to make provision for divorce but Christ had none of it. His will is clear; He hates it! So again I say, if you have a problem with that or think that God's way is outdated, then take that up with God. Trying to compare the sanctity of marriage to wearing robes is a straw man argument.

The word "fornication" in that translation can also be taken as "adultery" or 'any serious sexual sin', by my understanding.

 

[Bristecom]

Do you hold the requirement to stay together & married higher than the requirement to love/respect your spouse? If you haven't upheld the most basic promise of the contract, are you really bound by the all the clauses and exceptions that are dependent on that premise?

Marriage is really the ultimate contract in your mind? The one that can't be broken. More important than treating your spouse with respect and showing God's love? It is okay to allow your children to grow up with the image of a father who hurts other people and the woman says it is "okay" by staying? We form our first mental images of God the Father from our experiences with our own earthly father. What happens when the abuse starts spreading to the elderly parents or to the children? What if it is sexual assault of the child? The marriage contract still trumps the concept of caring for those around us and our obligation to take care of the helpless? Our obligation to remain married is really more important that our obligation to protect our children...even if that protection is just from forming a warped version of what marriage should looks like?

I do believe that as a society we bale on marriage too soon and for frivolous things. But I also do not believe that it is the highest of all contracts which requires protecting it even when it damages people.

Read your Bible. Was Jesus' message really about "obeying the law" and all of God's rules...or was it about building loving relationships? Is the Bible a love story or a rule book?

You can always find fault with your spouse and trade-up. But marriage isn't to be treated like a car. I've already explained that if the man is actually committing crimes, then he should be dealt with by the law. But that doesn't mean that you can just go out and marry another guy. I grew up in a rough and broken home but I came out a stronger Christian than I would have otherwise because I learned what NOT to do in a marriage/family. You can't say that it's better for the kids for you to divorce and remarry and for them to have to spend separate times with each parent from then on. From what I've seen, that does far more damage than at least one parent who tries to keep the family together and remain Godly.

All over the Bible, old and new covenant, it is consistent when speaking of the sanctity of marriage. If you truly believe that the Bible is telling you that you just need to be with whomever you love most at the time, and "love" trumps marriage contracts, then you seriously need to reread it and examine yourself. Of course, you just started a thread about God being half woman, so it sounds like you just kind of make the Bible say whatever you want it to say. You know, Baphomet/Lucifer is known to look half woman, maybe that's the one you're thinking of.

 

[blackribbon]

If you don't think our society and families are falling apart more than ever (unless you want to compare to civilizations like Sodom and Gomorrah), then I don't know what to tell you. I'm surprised that as a Christian, you cannot see it. All you have to do is a little research on divorce statistics in the US in the past 100 years for example. That's not to say divorce has always been around - of course it has - people always want to find a way out of their marriages.

Again, read Matthew 19:3-11. The pharisees tried to make provision for divorce but Christ had none of it. His will is clear; He hates it! So again I say, if you have a problem with that or think that God's way is outdated, then take that up with God. Trying to compare the sanctity of marriage to wearing robes is a straw man argument.

I didn't say that God liked divorce but He does allow it. You don't get to decide what is unBiblical based on your personal beliefs.

100 years is barely a snapshot of society. Yes, divorce statistics are up but that isn't the whole picture. I suspect that the divorce statistics in many Muslims societies are very low too...but that does not indicate a good godly marriage. It just means that poor marriages aren't being dissolved legally. It also is a reflection of society living longer. I don't think you have actually studied much history if you actually believe that there was a time when marriages were all good. Maybe the answer is to go back to sleeping in twin beds....or the men spending huge amounts of time away from their families while earning a living. Maybe we should just remove the rights of women as equal human beings so that they don't have the option of protecting their family.

 

[Bristecom]

The word "fornication" in that translation can also be taken as "adultery" or 'any serious sexual sin', by my understanding.

Well sorry but your understanding is incorrect. There are two different words used for fornication and adultery. In the original Greek, the word for fornication is porneía and for adultery it's moicheía/moichatai. Fornication means sex before/outside of marriage and adultery means sex with someone else while married. And in the Bible, it is still considered adultery when a divorced woman does it with another man, even if remarried. But as I said, of course the modern translation Bibles change this to adultery and even simply "immorality."

 

[Bristecom]

I didn't say that God liked divorce but He does allow it. You don't get to decide what is unBiblical based on your personal beliefs.

100 years is barely a snapshot of society. Yes, divorce statistics are up but that isn't the whole picture. I suspect that the divorce statistics in many Muslims societies are very low too...but that does not indicate a good godly marriage. It just means that poor marriages aren't being dissolved legally. It also is a reflection of society living longer. I don't think you have actually studied much history if you actually believe that there was a time when marriages were all good. Maybe the answer is to go back to sleeping in twin beds....or the men spending huge amounts of time away from their families while earning a living. Maybe we should just remove the rights of women as equal human beings so that they don't have the option of protecting their family.

My personal beliefs? No, I'm going off of what the Bible says. I have been quoting Bible verses and you have yet to quote even one. So who is really going off personal beliefs here? Again, you are diverting things by claiming we should go back to all the old ways. There is a difference between the traditions of men and the commandments in the Bible. The Bible does not condone sleeping separately at all. In fact, it gets embarrassingly in depth that it is good for a man to sleep with and fondle his wife. I don't mean to sound disrespectful but it sounds like you don't even know what the Bible tells us because every example you give is of the traditions of men rather than from the Bible.

 

[blackribbon]

You can always find fault with your spouse and trade-up. But marriage isn't to be treated like a car. I've already explained that if the man is actually committing crimes, then he should be dealt with by the law. But that doesn't mean that you can just go out and marry another guy. I grew up in a rough and broken home but I came out a stronger Christian than I would have otherwise because I learned what NOT to do in a marriage/family. You can't say that it's better for the kids for you to divorce and remarry and for them to have to spend separate times with each parent from then on. From what I've seen, that does far more damage than at least one parent who tries to keep the family together and remain Godly.

All over the Bible, old and new covenant, it is consistent when speaking of the sanctity of marriage. If you truly believe that the Bible is telling you that you just need to be with whomever you love most at the time, and "love" trumps marriage contracts, then you seriously need to reread it and examine yourself. Of course, you just started a thread about God being half woman, so it sounds like you just kind of make the Bible say whatever you want it to say. You know, Baphomet/Lucifer is known to look half woman, maybe that's the one you're thinking of.

I grew up in a broken family too. I once was young and naive like you too. I also spent a lot of time and energy focusing on finding a good man to marry and invested in keeping that marriage in place. For me it worked.

However, I have a very godly friend who finally had to walk out on her husband. He was sexually abusing her within the marriage. She tolerated it for years until she saw him eyeing their 13 year old daughter. Suddenly God laid it on her heart that she was not raising her daughter to be a godly woman but rather teaching her that it was okay for men to hurt women. She was also teaching her sons that this was an acceptable way to treat their future wives. So she packed up her and the kids and left. I am one of the few people she trusted with her story. Funny, she was the one ostracized by the church. She gave up everything. He made decent money but she had no work history since she had been the good stay-at-home mom for over 13 years. She supports her family on only slightly higher than minimum wage job. The church considers her at fault because not one person every came and asked why a godly meek woman would walk out on her husband. God has blessed her for having this courage and her smile is genuine now. She didn't "trade up". She is alone and focused on raising the precious children God blessed her with.

 

[blackribbon]

My personal beliefs? No, I'm going off of what the Bible says. I have been quoting Bible verses and you have yet to quote even one. So who is really going off personal beliefs here? Again, you are diverting things by claiming we should go back to all the old ways. There is a difference between the traditions of men and the commandments in the Bible. The Bible does not condone sleeping separately at all. In fact, it gets embarrassingly in depth that it is good for a man to sleep with and fondle his wife. I don't mean to sound disrespectful but it sounds like you don't even know what the Bible tells us because every example you give is of the traditions of men rather than from the Bible.

It says that sex is good. It does not say anything about the sleeping arrangement of a married couple. Sex and sleeping together are not necessarily the same thing. Honestly, there is nothing embarrassing about the detail sex described in the Bible. Sex was made by God and is a good thing. You have quoted a few random verses and this is the one post where I didn't quote Bible verses...but I can provide them. I did in my thread which highly offends your sensibilities of what is "proper". Since Satan is also sexless, I do assume that he may be both female and male in the same way I believe God is. Again, God has not condemned me for this train of thought and personally, I believe it actually came from Him as I continue to study the Bible on a much deeper level than a baby drinking milk. Judge away though since my hope isn't through your approval of my thoughts.

Again, if you want to discuss "the old ways", you are going to have to give me a time reference...100 years, 1000 years, 5000 years?...because otherwise the topic is too huge to give specific details about. What time frame was the "perfect" society and where Christian society was at it's peak?

 

[Bristecom]

I grew up in a broken family too. I once was young and naive like you too. I also spent a lot of time and energy focusing on finding a good man to marry and invested in keeping that marriage in place. For me it worked.

However, I have a very godly friend who finally had to walk out on her husband. He was sexually abusing her within the marriage. She tolerated it for years until she saw him eyeing their 13 year old daughter. Suddenly God laid it on her heart that she was not raising her daughter to be a godly woman but rather teaching her that it was okay for men to hurt women. She was also teaching her sons that this was an acceptable way to treat their future wives. So she packed up her and the kids and left. I am one of the few people she trusted with her story. Funny, she was the one ostracized by the church. She gave up everything. He made decent money but she had no work history since she had been the good stay-at-home mom for over 13 years. She supports her family on only slightly higher than minimum wage job. The church considers her at fault because not one person every came and asked why a godly meek woman would walk out on her husband. God has blessed her for having this courage and her smile is genuine now. She didn't "trade up". She is alone and focused on raising the precious children God blessed her with.

I don't know the details of that story. But she probably should have relied on the church or others for more help instead of taking matters entirely in her own hands. And she was wrong for teaching her children that abuse is normal. It's common sense that it is wrong. But if she hasn't actually divorced then she may not necessarily be in sin. Like I said, if the husband is actually proven to be committing crimes, then you can try things like separating for a while.

So why didn't HE MOVE to where he could get a job? Men didn't used to wait for the women to "allow" them to move. And much of history is about men moving ahead to get a job and get settled before returning home to collect their families. Not moving didn't protect his marriage so maybe he owns a little bit of the responsibility here.

He did move eventually. And she stayed. She took the initiative on the divorce and getting majority claim on the property and children. She refused to follow him and that left him in a very confused state for a while.

 

[TheGirlOnFire]

God has blessed me for leaving my abusive relationship. More ways than I thought ever. I have been told that I will find a husband who will be outstanding, godly person who will love me like Christ loved the church... he also healed me.

I made the right choice that day when God told me to leave, he also had a house ready for me in Glasgow. I packed my car etc a drove 450 leaving everything.

Best thing I did, I fear if I stayed I would have ended up dead!


I can't believe God for one minute would want women to stay in abusive relationships that affect the core of you, I wasn't even a human, you become less than it. Also as pointed out women will be murdered in abusive relationships.. to say that they should stay to put them at risk.. that God would do that.. is wrong

 

[MarkSB]

Well sorry but your understanding is incorrect. There are two different words used for fornication and adultery. In the original Greek, the word for fornication is porneía and for adultery it's moicheía/moichatai. Fornication means sex before/outside of marriage and adultery means sex with someone else while married. And in the Bible, it is still considered adultery when a divorced woman does it with another man, even if remarried. But as I said, of course the modern translation Bibles change this to adultery and even simply "immorality."

Well, I think you're reading your own bias into the scripture. The meaning of Pornea as it is used in the Matthean exception is a subject of debate, and sorry but your word doesn't pass as God's law.

 

[Bristecom]

It says that sex is good. It does not say anything about the sleeping arrangement of a married couple. Sex and sleeping together are not necessarily the same thing. Honestly, there is nothing embarrassing about the detail sex described in the Bible. Sex was made by God and is a good thing. You have quoted a few random verses and this is the one post where I didn't quote Bible verses...but I can provide them. I did in my thread which highly offends your sensibilities of what is "proper". Since Satan is also sexless, I do assume that he may be both female and male in the same way I believe God is. Again, God has not condemned me for this train of thought and personally, I believe it actually came from Him as I continue to study the Bible on a much deeper level than a baby drinking milk. Judge away though since my hope isn't through your approval of my thoughts.

Again, if you want to discuss "the old ways", you are going to have to give me a time reference...100 years, 1000 years, 5000 years?...because otherwise the topic is too huge to give specific details about. What time frame was the "perfect" society and where Christian society was at it's peak?

The Bible does speak about the marriage bed. Example: "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." - Hebrews 13:4

Quote me one verse where the Bible says a married couple should always sleep in separate beds.

 

[blackribbon]

I don't know the details of that story. But she probably should have relied on the church or others for more help instead of taking matters entirely in her own hands. And she was wrong for teaching her children that abuse is normal. It's common sense that it is wrong. But if she hasn't actually divorced then she may not necessarily be in sin. Like I said, if the husband is actually proven to be committing crimes, then you can try things like separating for a while.
.

No, the church and our Christian community completed deserted her and encouraged her to return to him. They never asked him what he did wrong or ask that he behave as a Christian husband should. They just assumed because he put on a good "front". I mean he came home every night and brought home his paycheck...what else should he be required to do?

And WOW! she is living in sin for choosing a life where she was not being sexually and physically abused? WOW again. Do you also believe that it was okay for that "Christian" family to have beaten their one son to death and put the other one in critical medical condition ... I mean, doesn't the Bible say "Children obey your parents?". Doesn't that mean that parents are right no matter what? Don't worry. She is safely divorced from this "godly" man. And believe it or not, God has blessed her for following Him.