And he didn't claim his position as head of this family...he let her be head and call the shots. And there is nothing hilarious about either of them defaulting on their Christian responsibilities to each other.
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And he didn't claim his position as head of this family...he let her be head and call the shots. And there is nothing hilarious about either of them defaulting on their Christian responsibilities to each other.
I am not finding fault with God or the Bible. I believe the Bible implicitly. I find fault with people who want to limit it to their own limited understanding and personal agendas like you seem to do. God is perfect. If there is an exception actually put in the Bible, then it is there for a reason...and I want to understand it. Over and over, you say that you understand God's intention for everything...so I challenge you to explain the exceptions. The exceptions are still all Biblical.
You read a lot between the lines and assume that your assumptions are the Mind of God or that everyone else makes the same assumptions. I don't believe in limiting God to my understanding but rather challenge Him to expand my mind and grow. Some day I will learn Greek and Hebrew so that I can read the original versions of the Bible but until then, I will not assume that a two minute google search where I am depending on someone's version of a translation is the same as "understanding". I will continue to research and grow concerning the topics that God lays on my heart. Even still, I know I don't have the answers and know I won't until the day where I die and have perfect understanding.
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Okay. I'm asking because last time I spoke about this with someone on CF, I was told that anyone living in sin will not go to heaven. "Living in sin" was defined as constant breaking of biblical commands. If that's the truth about getting to heaven, then the commands appear to have crucial importance. On the other hand, if that's not the truth and one can go to heaven while living in sin, then the commands are of course not as crucial.
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Luke 23
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
No evidence that they allowed him off the cross so that he could walk to the front of the church and recite the sinner's prayer before he died...and I don't even see a statement of repentance...he simple believed that Jesus was God and recognized that salvation came through Jesus. That doesn't mean we can do what we want in life but if you really love God believe that He is who He says He is, then your life will reflect an honest attempt to make Him happy by trying to live a life that honors Him. I challenge anyone to say they are completely free of sin. We are sinners saved by grace...not sin free beings.
(and for our KJV only friends: Luke 23:39-43 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.)
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Thanks, that sounds refreshing. I don't believe in moral perfection either, in fact I think trying to achieve perfection is somewhat doomed path and most likely outcome with that path is to end up becoming something like Jekyll and Hyde.
btw. You have no idea how horrible that KJV language is to read for a foreigner... That first quote with some other version, I could read that with no problems, but the KJV one I practically understood only because I just had read the other one moment before and I'm somewhat familiar with the story. I should try to read some book I haven't read before with that version and see if I understand it at all. If God really gave KJV as his true revelation for the mankind, he must have forgotten about non-native English speakers somewhere in the process.
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The King James Bible was written for people who spoke Old English. The words were common and understood by the people hearing it and reading it. When a leader has to stop and translate the words in a verse before they can discuss the message in the verse, understand that they are obviously teaching a different language. God isn't that hard to understand. I do own and use multiple King James Bibles along with other versions but my favorite is the NIV because I believe that the method used in translating it was the most accurate. I like that it is the easiest to understand ... at least in my opinion. However, I am not arrogant enough to say that it is the ONLY version that is God's sanctified Word.
As for being sin free, I believe that anyone who even thinks they are close are guilty of the sin of arrogance & pride. The problem with requiring other Christians to be "sin free" is that none of us are and we build up false masks to hide our sinful nature out of fear of rejection. Jesus didn't ask us to become perfect...only to love. If I love someone, then I can't intentionally harm them or do evil to them. Our behavior to become Christ-like isn't through following some long list of rules to "earn" God's favor. He knows we can't do it. Luckily the gift from God is grace which is mercy and love IN SPITE of our limitations. When you realize that God loves you..just as you are...ugly faults included...and will accept you with open arms every time you return to Him and offer grace again and again, that is when we truly become free to be who we really are. That is what the story of the prodical son is about in Luke 15: 11-32 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+15:11-32&version=NIV ... or KJV: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+15:11-32&version=KJV) God loved the son that strayed every bit as much as the son that was "good"...and when the sinful son returned, the father rejoiced ... he didn't ask for repentance or a promise that this time he would be good...he simple loved his son and rejoiced that he had returned. I imagine that after a welcoming like that and the son probably did repent and tried to do right by his dad...but the love was offered unconditionally. THAT is what the Living God is about and what Christianity is supposed to be teaching.
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Bristecom
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I agree. And I wasn't claiming that anybody who has divorced and remarried isn't saved. However, as Christians with the Holy Spirit in us, we should know what is considered sinful and care about what God really wants for us.
Maybe you missed my first few posts on this thread about this topic because I already explained these things. But for your convenience, I will re-post it.
Mark 10:2-12 - (no exceptions)
"And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery."
Luke 16:18 - (no exceptions)
"Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery."
Matthew 5:31-32 - (no exceptions)
"It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."
Matthew 9:3-11 - (exception? not really)
"The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given."
So here we see fornication as a possible exception. This word is clearly fornication and not adultery - even in the original Greek manuscripts. This means sex before marriage. So this can only be referring to the provision given to breaking marriage in the Old Testament that if a wife was presented as a virgin and found not to be one shortly after, the marriage was annulled.
Deuteronomy 22:20-21 -
"But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you."
This also happened with Mary because Joseph thought Mary was pregnant from another man and was about to divorce her but the Angel came and explained that she was actually pregnant with Christ from the Spirit.
Now some will try to take the following out of context:
1 Corinthians 7:12-16 -
"But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?"
But this is clearly talking about one getting saved while the other spouse is not saved. If the other spouse refuses to live with them anymore and leaves, then you may let them go. But you are to remain single and rely on extended family and the church for help.
So the only exception to remarriage had always been death in the OT and NT.
Romans 7:3 -
"So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man."
Now, of course, sinful humans HATE this teaching. So they will spend countless hours trying to twist the scriptures to create any sort of provision to try and justify their decision with God - just like the pharisees would do thousands of years ago. But I don't think changing the meaning of words and only using modern Bibles to fit your agenda is going to trick God.
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I already said I don't believe in divorce. However, I do not believe that this is as important of an issues as you do. Funny, since I am even of those "legally" allowed to be remarried.
Jesus called us to teach his message and be the path that can lead people to Christ. I don't think attacking people who are already divorced and remarried will probably do that. In fact, the example that he gave toward a women who was CAUGHT in an adulterous relationship is very different from your approach of condemnation.
John 5: 1-11
1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
So are you really going to cross that line? Jesus didn't throw anything but love and acceptance and he was the only one qualified to throw a stone. Yes, you are right. God does not like divorce. He doesn't like broken relationships of any type. However, he still loves divorced people and even can work within the sin in their lives. Adultery isn't the great sin that keeps anyone from God or heaven. It isn't good but it really isn't any worse than any other sin. Sin is sin. None are sanctified by God but none are unforgivable either.
(Interesting to note that for a KJV only kind of person that all your references were from the American Standard Version)
Jesus called us to teach his message and be the path that can lead people to Christ. I don't think attacking people who are already divorced and remarried will probably do that. In fact, the example that he gave toward a women who was CAUGHT in an adulterous relationship is very different from your approach of condemnation.
John 5: 1-11
1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
So are you really going to cross that line? Jesus didn't throw anything but love and acceptance and he was the only one qualified to throw a stone. Yes, you are right. God does not like divorce. He doesn't like broken relationships of any type. However, he still loves divorced people and even can work within the sin in their lives. Adultery isn't the great sin that keeps anyone from God or heaven. It isn't good but it really isn't any worse than any other sin. Sin is sin. None are sanctified by God but none are unforgivable either.
(Interesting to note that for a KJV only kind of person that all your references were from the American Standard Version)
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Bristecom
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No, what I mean is that it is our sinful nature that tends to want to twist scripture so that we don't have to fess up about what we've done or change our sinful ways. My point is that we should simply accept what God says and wants for us. Of course, when we sin, we have an advocate, which is the Lord Jesus Christ. "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Period. However, as I mentioned before, as children of God, we should want to respect and obey Him and not try to constantly find loopholes like what the serpent tempted Eve with in the Garden of Eden, "Hath God really said that ye shall not eat of this tree?" "Ye shall surely not die."
And you bring up the adulteress woman Christ spoke with but what did He say when He got done talking with her? "Go and sin no more!" He did not say, "Hey woman, just keep doing what your doing! Maybe your 6th husband will be the one."
And you bring up the adulteress woman Christ spoke with but what did He say when He got done talking with her? "Go and sin no more!" He did not say, "Hey woman, just keep doing what your doing! Maybe your 6th husband will be the one."
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So what are you suggesting is the answer? If a Christian has already remarried, what are they suppose to do to solve this "sin" problem? And for the person who is currently divorced, are they to be alone for the remainder of their lives? Jesus' blood isn't big enough to cover this sin and offer forgiveness related to a divorce?
Since this is a singles forum, I assume that I am not discussing this topic with people currently married and contemplating divorce. That act is done by the time they get here. Now how do you believe that God addresses this sin after it has been done.
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GraceDriven
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No, what I mean is that it is our sinful nature that tends to want to twist scripture so that we don't have to fess up about what we've done or change our sinful ways. My point is that we should simply accept what God says and wants for us. Of course, when we sin, we have an advocate, which is the Lord Jesus Christ. "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Period. However, as I mentioned before, as children of God, we should want to respect and obey Him and not try to constantly find loopholes like what the serpent tempted Eve with in the Garden of Eden, "Hath God really said that ye shall not eat of this tree?" "Ye shall surely not die."
And you bring up the adulteress woman Christ spoke with but what did He say when He got done talking with her? "Go and sin no more!" He did not say, "Hey woman, just keep doing what your doing! Maybe your 6th husband will be the one."
I think you are leaving out part of the equation. But, I am not surprise. People can interpret the bible anyway the want. He is been gone a long time now. More than have of my life. But in the 10 years before he died I saw his version of it. He would not be too happy for me right now.
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GraceDriven
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Bristecom you are assuming all men out there are of faith and are practicing that faith correctly. You better take a good look around you and stop blaming women. Why are you not preaching more men to be biblical like?
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I have yet to meet a single divorced person doesn't realize what they did wrong in their relationship. I don't think that most people are standing up in church yelling..."I am JUSTIFIED in getting a divorce ..." (I'd start looking for a mental health issue in anyone who actually thought like that). It isn't usually an arrogance issue but rather a very broken relationship that brings people to the point of divorce. Just as Jesus was born of the lineage of King David that included an adulterous affair, God can forgive relationship mistakes & sins and bless them when the people turn back to God.
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GraceDriven
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I disagree, I do think people need to look at themselves first.
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And you bring up the adulteress woman Christ spoke with but what did He say when He got done talking with her? "Go and sin no more!" He did not say, "Hey woman, just keep doing what your doing! Maybe your 6th husband will be the one."
I missed the point where he sat down with her to make sure she understood what he was saying and told her that she was condemned to be alone forever. Not to mention the follow up visits to make sure she was staying sin free.
If Jesus thought this was such an important issue, why didn't he address it with the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+4:+1-26&version=NIV). He knew that she had multiple partners and wasn't married to the current partner and yet, He didn't mention her sin as something she needed to address before coming to the Living Water that He offered. The gift was free and unconditional and He didn't even tell her to "go and sin no more" (which I think was said more for the crowds benefit than really condemning her...it was an offer of complete forgiveness). Yes, divorce is awful but it is the sin of broken promises and broken relationship and not a sin that comes without forgiveness.
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Bristecom
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If they've already remarried and did so out of ignorance, then they are to stay who they are with. They've already made a new covenant with that person so they need to stop breaking covenants. If they have divorced, they should remain single. You might say this is impossible but my uncle is an amazing example of this. His wife cheated on him and left him and he has remained single all these years and has grown stronger than ever in the Word. May God bless him!
But again, do not twist my words. I am not saying that if you trust in Christ as the total sacrifice for your sins, that He won't cover them. I'm only saying that it's probably a good idea to start obeying His Word from here on out. Maybe something even greater will come of it! And if you have the attitude that you don't care at all what God's Word says and what He wants, then you may want to double check to see if the Holy Spirit is really in you.
And no, it is not unBiblical to quote Bible verses and point out sins. But I never once pointed towards a person on here and called them out on this sin. So I am not condemning anyone. Paul constantly pointed out the sins they were allowing in the churches and named the false prophets of his day. And saying there is no unforgivable sin is not correct - there are two: Blaspheming the Holy Spirit and taking the mark of the Beast.
And yes, this subject of divorce is a derailment from the original topic. I did not bring it up, it just kind of led into this.
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Yes, may God bless him. King David was a miserable failure at avoiding sexual sins...and yet, he also grew in the Word, too. I am glad that you have perfect people in your family. I am limited to people who are sinners who are covered by grace so maybe my understanding is limited.
I am not saying that people ignore their sins or pretend that divorce is "okay". I don't think any Christian church teaches this. However, I do not believe that it is the one sin that mean you are condemned to live alone for the remainder of your life. I do believe that Jesus' blood of forgiveness can make a person shiny and new ... which means the shame of divorce is no longer a stain that limits their life.
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Bristecom
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Haha... I'm blaming women for everything? Right... that's totally what I've been saying.
According to you guys I'm just a Bible thumping, woman-hating man, who endorses abuse and the degradation of women. The Bible tells me to move on when they will not listen and I have to get back to work now. So goodbye.
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