Contraception

[PreachersWife2004]

of course children are a blessing from God - who in the world, or who in this thread, even, said that they weren't???

andrea yates should NOT have had children.

susan smith should NOT have had children.

those children were indeed blessings, who were thrown away by people who should have never been parents to begin with.

why do i feel like i am banging my head against a gigantic brick wall here.

Who is questioning God's will now?

We throw away God's blessings every day. Do you think you're better than Yates or Smith?

You've probably sinned in the last day. I know I have. I guess we shouldn't have had children either.

What do you think about what the ECF said about birth control? What do you think of Luther, who wrote this about birth control:

“Moses numbers fertility among the blessings. ‘There will not be a barren woman among you,’ he says (Ex.23:26). We do not regard this so highly today. Although we like and desire it in cattle, yet in the human race there are few who regard a woman’s fertility as a blessing. Indeed there are many who have an aversion for it and regard sterility as a special blessing. Surely this is also contrary to nature. Much less pious and saintly. For this affection has been implanted by God in man’s nature, so that it desires its increase and multiplication. It is inhuman and godless to have a loathing for offspring.”

Martin Luther, Luther’s Works Vol.5
​

 

[Redhead11]

Andrea Yates and Susan Smith should have had children. Who are you to tell God whom He should and shouldn't create? All things work for good. Sin is in the world, who are you to say that those women didn't love their children and weren't at one time decent mothers?

What shouldn't have happened was the neglect that happened spiritually and emotionally to those women which caused them to kill their children. Yet, even the death of these children can be turned towards the good as these horrible events could have opened the eyes of even one person to have saving faith.

We are not to judge God. We are to love our neighbor during their struggles, as Galations 6:2 says for us to "carry each other's burdens in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ."

When we fail to do so, the result can be horrific. This doesn't mean we are ignoring the sin of these two women, but that those who could have helped and didn't have sinned as well.

In the end, sin is everywhere, in what we say and do, in what we leave undone and in what we think.

God created those children who ultimately didn't live to adulthood. Their death is a shame, but no more of a shame than that of the death of Jesus in whom no one ever would say should never have been born.

 

[bach90]

LOL! Bach,
Okay, then this means that I am aloud by your logic to tell you that there is no excuse for the sin you are demonstrating on this board. While I too respect all three uses of the law equally. What you are demonstrating is a man with little grace and dignity as you MUST show how correct and wise you are. If Christ acted this way, he would have argued with the woman at the well and pounded her for her sins as you have done on this thread.

We all agree that this command is God pleasing. But not everyone is able to follow it. If they were, then why would we need Christ?

So to be consistant Bach, you too must at least try. Try to respect God's children who have saving faith and have had to deal with this struggle. Love them as Christ loved and forgave you and your sins.

Oh my...I just see how what I typed could be read that way, didn't mean to come across like that!

I'm not trying to show how correct I am. My position is not my position at all, but that of Scripture and some of the most eminent theologians of the Christian Church...putting those two together tends to be correct.

I've never personally attacked anybody on this thread. I did state when somebody misrepresented my position, but I never use personal attacks. I've simply stated my position which I believe is substantiated by Scripture and history. I haven't pounded people for their sins on this thread, I have pointed out that contraception, abortion, and homosexuality are all, in my opinion, from the same demonic ideologies.

Why don't Americans in particular follow the command in Genesis 1? It's usually not because of psychological or medical conditions, but everything to do with not wanting to give up their middle class lifestyle of luxury and vacations.

Jesus is not the hippie you are trying to make him out to be. Matthew 23. Paul also gets pretty riled up at times (Gal 5:12). Now, I am in no way as holy or learned as Paul. However, sin should make people angry, sin should be despised. Doesn't mean I have personally attacked anybody as you insinuated. In fact, it's kind of the opposite, I've been attacked having my position (which wasn't even my position) called asinine, a quite high academic term in the English language of course.

 

[alexnbethmom]

i said i don't know how many pages back that i was done with this conversation - and i got sucked back into it, just like i knew i would....

of course i've sinned. i've sinned in the last day. i've sinned in the last 30 seconds, most likely, reading this thread.

i don't dare tell God who He should or shouldn't create. but excuse me for taking the murder of children EXTREMELY PERSONALLY, whether by ABORTION, or by DROWNING IN A LAKE, A BATHTUB, STABBING, SHOOTING, STRANGLING, SETTING ON FIRE, BLOWING UP, take your pick. if being on birth control would mean that those MURDERS would not have happened, then excuse me for being on the side of birth control.

for some people, fertility is indeed a blessing - for some, infertility is a blessing. for some, having 1 child is enough; for some, having 2 children is enough; for some, having 20 children isn't even enough; and for some, having no children is just as much a blessing has having 20 would be to someone else.

why is that so unbelievably hard to understand???

 

[WildStrawberry]

I didn't realize that disagreeing with your logic meant I was telling you that you weren't a good Christian or that I was emotionally abusing you.

I don't read it as disagreeing with my "logic" but with what is something I believe is God working in my life. Continuing to say that I'm sinning in this way...when I have absolutely no equipment to actually conceive or carry a child...is emotionally hurting me.

I simply responded to the message you put out there. My responses were real - it is what I felt when I read it. I even had my husband read it, just in case I was experiencing some weird PMS thing. I did not tell him my reaction to it, but I can tell you that his was pretty much the same thing.

I don't doubt that your responses were real. The words I wrote were intended to be extreme...sorta like Jesus telling us to remove our hands or eyes...they were meant to shock because there are people out there who procreate and then treat their progeny as less than animals. Heck, I'm "Pope watching" on Fox News and they're getting ready to talk about a "mother" letting her toddler swap out his bottle for a pot bong! I know I would never be that kind of Mom. I'd be the cookie baking, bento making, van driving, soccer (I hate soccer) band geek Mom. But the truth is, if you have a kid and you are NOT a good parent...what do you do? If you give the child up after several months or even years, then you'd be labeled a horrible person even though you're actually doing the best thing possible for the child.

The thing is, there's never a good time to bring a child into this world. That child may have a horrible life. He may die early. His father may abuse him. He might get bullied at school. He might get cancer. The list can go on and on. But he is still a child of God, and that's what matters.

There is no win here for anyone who has a different opinion. I have given my reasons, I've explained myself and I've been as respectful as I can. I would hope that you may take a step back and reevaluate the tone of your postings. Only because it feels like you're being overly righteous and I'm pretty convinced that you don't mean to be at all.

Unless there's more "tongue in cheek" responses to be made, I'm going to drop my end of the conversation. I'm not being heard and I'm tired of defending my faith in God's will for me.

 

[Redhead11]

Oh my...I just see how what I typed could be read that way, didn't mean to come across like that!

I'm not trying to show how correct I am. My position is not my position at all, but that of Scripture and some of the most eminent theologians of the Christian Church...putting those two together tends to be correct.

I've never personally attacked anybody on this thread. I did state when somebody misrepresented my position, but I never use personal attacks. I've simply stated my position which I believe is substantiated by Scripture and history. I haven't pounded people for their sins on this thread, I have pointed out that contraception, abortion, and homosexuality are all, in my opinion, from the same demonic ideologies.

Why don't Americans in particular follow the command in Genesis 1? It's usually not because of psychological or medical conditions, but everything to do with not wanting to give up their middle class lifestyle of luxury and vacations.

Jesus is not the hippie you are trying to make him out to be. Matthew 23. Paul also gets pretty riled up at times (Gal 5:12). Now, I am in no way as holy or learned as Paul. However, sin should make people angry, sin should be despised. Doesn't mean I have personally attacked anybody as you insinuated. In fact, it's kind of the opposite, I've been attacked having my position (which wasn't even my position) called asinine, a quite high academic term in the English language of course.

Just as my posts makes Jesus "sound like a hippie" and your repeated posts that the person who doesn't fulfill this law perfectly is a sinner sound like you are pounding those of us who have sinned ... it was not intended as you or I have preceived it to sound.

The former posts were heavy on talking about the sinfulness of others and I was trying to insert a balance of love and Gospel. Laid on too thickly, one can perceive the posts to sound a bit extreme. This is where sin can alter perception. Sin sucks! That is my sermon for the day! LOL!

 

[bach90]

i said i don't know how many pages back that i was done with this conversation - and i got sucked back into it, just like i knew i would....

of course i've sinned. i've sinned in the last day. i've sinned in the last 30 seconds, most likely, reading this thread.

i don't dare tell God who He should or shouldn't create. but excuse me for taking the murder of children EXTREMELY PERSONALLY, whether by ABORTION, or by DROWNING IN A LAKE, A BATHTUB, STABBING, SHOOTING, STRANGLING, SETTING ON FIRE, BLOWING UP, take your pick. if being on birth control would mean that those MURDERS would not have happened, then excuse me for being on the side of birth control.

for some people, fertility is indeed a blessing - for some, infertility is a blessing. for some, having 1 child is enough; for some, having 2 children is enough; for some, having 20 children isn't even enough; and for some, having no children is just as much a blessing has having 20 would be to someone else.

why is that so unbelievably hard to understand???

It was back on page 6 when you reinvented my argument, dismissed it out of hand and then I showed you that your assumption that people diagnosed as barren would never use birth control was unfounded.

Obviously, those things murders, abortions, etc. are evil. We agree on that. But if contraception is also a sin, then one simply cannot simply perform the lesser evil. Romans 3:8.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I don't read it as disagreeing with my "logic" but with what is something I believe is God working in my life. Continuing to say that I'm sinning in this way...when I have absolutely no equipment to actually conceive or carry a child...is emotionally hurting me.

I don't think you are continuing to sin. I apologize if I gave that impression.

My husband is standing here saying "God makes all things work out for his glory". That includes the results of a sinful world.

I believe that while God's intention for your marriage may not have been to be childfree, he has used the fact that it was to His glory - as evidenced by your "children" at church.

I don't doubt that your responses were real. The words I wrote were intended to be extreme...sorta like Jesus telling us to remove our hands or eyes...they were meant to shock because there are people out there who procreate and then treat their progeny as less than animals. Heck, I'm "Pope watching" on Fox News and they're getting ready to talk about a "mother" letting her toddler swap out his bottle for a pot bong! I know I would never be that kind of Mom. I'd be the cookie baking, bento making, van driving, soccer (I hate soccer) band geek Mom. But the truth is, if you have a kid and you are NOT a good parent...what do you do? If you give the child up after several months or even years, then you'd be labeled a horrible person even though you're actually doing the best thing possible for the child.

I gave up a child I knew I couldn't provide for. It was the most loving thing I've ever done for child. I don't think I've been labeled as a horrible person.

I know there are bad parents out there. I know you would not have been one of them. (What is "bento making, anyway? Is this some new mom fad that I missed out on?? THIS MOTHER NEEDS TO KNOW!!)

There is no win here for anyone who has a different opinion. I have given my reasons, I've explained myself and I've been as respectful as I can. I would hope that you may take a step back and reevaluate the tone of your postings. Only because it feels like you're being overly righteous and I'm pretty convinced that you don't mean to be at all.

No, I am not trying to come across as overly righteous. Trust me, I've made my fair shake of mistakes over the years, both as a parent and as a person. Ultimately, whether I agree with the choices you made or not, it doesn't matter - what is going on in your life is in your life and not mine.

I can't promise that I will ever agree with what you've said...but I can promise to respect it and to make sure that my words are kinder and not meant to be offensive.

Unless there's more "tongue in cheek" responses to be made, I'm going to drop my end of the conversation. I'm not being heard and I'm tired of defending my faith in God's will for me.

I don't think you're not being heard. If you weren't being heard, I wouldn't be exchanging dialog with you. I'm just not understanding, that's all. I'm kinda flawed that way.

 

[alexnbethmom]

bach90 - this is what you said:

There is the possibility that a couple diagnosed as barren can, by I believe a miracle, have children. I know of one such couple. Had they used contraception, they certainly wouldn't have had a child. What is important is to leave open the possibility of life during the marital act.

i said - "a couple diagnosed as barren would not use birth control", to which you replied "of course they wouldn't - so what?"

you are talking in circles. you have a holier-than-thou attitude, and are so completely weighted down with Law that you can't see anything else. show me in the 10 Commandments where it says "Thou Shalt Not Use Birth Control".

to be perfectly honest - you are 22 years old and have not married yet. come back and talk to me when you are 45, 50 years old and have been married for 20, 30 years - we'll see where you stand then. it's perfectly easy for you to stand there and point your finger and say "sinner!!" when you have no point of reference in your own life.

 

[WildStrawberry]

Bento is a Japanese way of making lunch. Here's a link for some pictures. you. will. die. at. the. cute. bento - Google Search

I wasn't talking about giving a child up at birth but after having had that child for 6 months or a year or more. Being a birthmother is one of the most awesome things in the entire world and I commend you for it! (Being an adoptive mom is just as awesome! My Mom will tell you that! LOL)

They're getting ready to have the kid with the pot bong on on FNC.

 

[Redhead11]

i said i don't know how many pages back that i was done with this conversation - and i got sucked back into it, just like i knew i would....

of course i've sinned. i've sinned in the last day. i've sinned in the last 30 seconds, most likely, reading this thread.

i don't dare tell God who He should or shouldn't create. but excuse me for taking the murder of children EXTREMELY PERSONALLY, whether by ABORTION, or by DROWNING IN A LAKE, A BATHTUB, STABBING, SHOOTING, STRANGLING, SETTING ON FIRE, BLOWING UP, take your pick. if being on birth control would mean that those MURDERS would not have happened, then excuse me for being on the side of birth control.

for some people, fertility is indeed a blessing - for some, infertility is a blessing. for some, having 1 child is enough; for some, having 2 children is enough; for some, having 20 children isn't even enough; and for some, having no children is just as much a blessing has having 20 would be to someone else.

why is that so unbelievably hard to understand???

But everyone here seems to understand that. I have 9 children of my own. I never intended to have 9 children and tried very hard not to have so many. I grew up abused and didn't feel qualified to handle so many. Yet, God's plans were what they were and I am grateful for what He has done for me.

Yet with that said, I still surgically stopped myself from having more. They were getting closer and closer together, and income was getting more limited. To top that off, I was getting very tired physically and emotionally to where the children were suffering. Lastly, I am old, and the health of the babies were getting worse and worse.

Yet for many who argue against birth control and for those who look down on others for taking control over the size of their family, I tend to get a pass only because I have fulfilled my "quota" of children.

But still, I sinned. I sinned when I was mad at God for allowing me to be pregnant *AGAIN*! I sinned when life had gotten so hard that I wished I was child-free so that I can do a "do-over" in my life. I sinned when I had Esure implanted so that I could not have more children.

Yet I tend to get a free pass because people can "understand".

No, they shouldn't "understand" for I am just as bad a sinner as the woman who aborted, as the axe murderer and the shop-lifter. We all are sinners. We all need prayer, love and respect. We are all on different paths in life and are learning. It is sad for those who reject Christ and do not accept His forgiveness. But for those who do not reject Christ ... we need to understand that God is working on us. Some of us are ignorant to the fact that abortificiants are not God pleasing or that they do actually kill children. Others do know and have a hardened heart.

It is those who reject Christ and those who have faith with a hardened heart that need love, patience, mercy and prayer.

Admit it ... on your worst day ... wouldn't you also want to be treated with love, patience, mercy and forgiveness?

 

[alexnbethmom]

ok - my horrible, sinful, "2 is my limit so i'm going to go on birth control" self is going to jump out of this conversation for a bit, so i can get my nails done.

hopefully by the time i get back my headache will be gone.

 

[Luther073082]

Without diving too deeply into the theological issues as I think those have been beaten to death. . .

I would certainly like to know how those who are anti-birth control would propose a married couple who might not have a six figure income would say take care of all of the children that will inevitably result from not using birth control but at the same time engaging in a normal marital relationship?

We talk a lot about children being a blessing and they are. . . but where does the responsibility to and for those children enter in?

And who here is willing to pay for my wife and I to have, feed, and house 20 kids? Because we certainly can't afford it.

 

[Redhead11]

My husband was making $6.50 an hour when we had 2 children. We gradually increased in income as well as with children. Neither of us have parents or any family members to help with finances or babysitting.

A young couple will not be making poverty level income their whole lives. We certainly didn't. 9 children later, considering my husband's income to the ratio of our family size, we are still "poverty level". Yet my 21yr old son is nearly finished with his Bachelors at MSOE (a great school) to become an Electrical Engineer.

It takes hard work ... I know. In the end, I had Esure implanted to prevent a 10th child from being born for multiple reasons.

There is no law that says you will have as many children as the Duggar's. I would suggest that a young married couple should make this decision for themselves. I would only advise against using an abortificiant. If God's plan is for them to have children, then they must understand that as adults, our faith is tested and grows. This may not be "ideal" in their minds, but what we consider "ideal" is not always what God considers "ideal". This just happens to be how faith works.

If their family size continues to grow to where they have reason to feel that they cannot handle more, then that is a discussion for later.

 

[bach90]

Just as my posts makes Jesus "sound like a hippie" and your repeated posts that the person who doesn't fulfill this law perfectly is a sinner sound like you are pounding those of us who have sinned ... it was not intended as you or I have preceived it to sound.

The former posts were heavy on talking about the sinfulness of others and I was trying to insert a balance of love and Gospel. Laid on too thickly, one can perceive the posts to sound a bit extreme. This is where sin can alter perception. Sin sucks! That is my sermon for the day! LOL!

So that's where we are disagreeing. You can't speak of the law with love or mercy, it has to be stated in its fullness and starkness. You don't balance Law and Gospel, you state both in their purity. I love black and white and have a healthy dislike for any shades of gray.

The Gospel redeems from sin, but it doesn't mean you get to call sin, "not sin."

bach90 - this is what you said:



i said - "a couple diagnosed as barren would not use birth control", to which you replied "of course they wouldn't - so what?"

you are talking in circles. you have a holier-than-thou attitude, and are so completely weighted down with Law that you can't see anything else. show me in the 10 Commandments where it says "Thou Shalt Not Use Birth Control".

to be perfectly honest - you are 22 years old and have not married yet. come back and talk to me when you are 45, 50 years old and have been married for 20, 30 years - we'll see where you stand then. it's perfectly easy for you to stand there and point your finger and say "sinner!!" when you have no point of reference in your own life.

Where have I pointed the finger at you and called you, "sinner!" I didn't. I can't judge the motives of your heart, but, I can point out what Scripture says as a general rule and point out the opinions of men who knew Scripture better then both of us.

Obviously I haven't pointed it out in the 10th commandments where it says that quote. Where does the Bible say "Trinity?" I've made, I think, some pretty decent inductive arguments from Scripture and history. You haven't shown me where the Bible even speaks positively about birth control or permits it.

Yes I'm 22, but, well there's that passage in 1 Tim 4:12.

As far as how to provide, well, maybe some kids will have to take a few thousand bucks in student loans for college (in addition to working hard to get a scholarship) as I did in my family. Maybe some vacations and luxuries have to be sacrificed. Maybe the parents will have to work a few more hours. Maybe the kids have to have a part-time job while attending school as I did. Kids can be provided for, but often, luxuries will have to be sacrificed. That is of course demanded by the office of father and mother, children are not for the good of the parents but the opposite, parents work for the good of the children.

Of course the holier-than-thou comment is just a way of shutting me down without addressing my argument. Dropping the "P" word might have been more effective though. I also have a point of reference in my life, coming from a bigger then average family, though by no means a quiver-full.

 

[WildStrawberry]

Simple curiosity...Bach90, are you Pre Sem??

 

[Redhead11]

Simple curiosity...Bach90, are you Pre Sem??

He certainly sounds Pre-Sem.

FYI: Bach ... You speak symantics re: Law/Gospel ... we are essentially saying the same thing. You speak them in their purity and you do not speak one heavier than another, you keep a balance. Disagree if you want, but that is what the top Lutheran theologians teach.

 

[filosofer]

Redhead11, are you who I think you are (nine kids gives away some of that)? I think we know each other from other boards and FB.

Howdy and welcome here.... from a really old codger

 

[bach90]

He certainly sounds Pre-Sem.

FYI: Bach ... You speak symantics re: Law/Gospel ... we are essentially saying the same thing. You speak them in their purity and you do not speak one heavier than another, you keep a balance. Disagree if you want, but that is what the top Lutheran theologians teach.

I'm not pre-Sem or in Sem. I did study philosophy in undergrad and was exposed to alot of theology by way of course (Augustine, Aquinas, Luther came up once in a while), not always Lutheran ones (public college).

I would love to see where a Lutheran theologian says to balance Law and Gospel. Walther explicitly says when constructing a sermon to have the Gospel predominate.

The Apology, V.I

As the distinction between the Law and the Gospel is a special brilliant light, which serves to the end that God's Word may be rightly divided, and the Scriptures of the holy prophets and apostles may be properly explained and understood, we must guard it with especial care, in order that these two doctrines may not be mingled with one another, or a law be made out of the Gospel, whereby the merit of Christ is obscured and troubled consciences are robbed of their comfort, which they otherwise have in the holy Gospel when it is preached genuinely and in its purity, and by which they can support themselves in their most grievous trials against the terrors of the Law.

 

[DaRev]

Without diving too deeply into the theological issues as I think those have been beaten to death. . .

I would certainly like to know how those who are anti-birth control would propose a married couple who might not have a six figure income would say take care of all of the children that will inevitably result from not using birth control but at the same time engaging in a normal marital relationship?

We talk a lot about children being a blessing and they are. . . but where does the responsibility to and for those children enter in?

And who here is willing to pay for my wife and I to have, feed, and house 20 kids? Because we certainly can't afford it.

And this is the one thing lacking by most in this whole argument - STEWARDSHIP, which is also a command of God.