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Contraception

PreachersWife2004

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uh huh - and did you read about WHY my late husband and i made the decision we made? or do these kinds of dilemmas just not matter at all?

Is this to me? Cuz I wasn't really referring to any one particular situation. Specifically in your case, my personal opinion is that you had fulfilled that one purpose of marriage. You had children. When you married Rev he had children. Your motive wasn't borne out of a selfish desire.
 
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alexnbethmom

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PW, i don't know, i'm not sure if i'm directing it at you or who i'm directing it at - it seems that there are some on here that think that we should be spitting out kids until our insides fall out, no matter what our health situation, or financial situation, or housing situation, and even thinking about birth control for any reason other than "i have acne" or "my periods are irregular" is a massive sin.

this is how it seems this conversation is going, and has been going - not YOU, but others on this thread. and it's making me more than just a wee bit insane.
 
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bach90

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I don't think anybody said massive sin, but to make sure no one thinks that I'm talking in circles, I'll be very clear in what I assert based on Scriptural, historical, and theological testimony: I believe that artificial contraception, absent a compelling medical reason, can objectively be viewed as sinful.
 
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alexnbethmom

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sin is sin, whether it's driving 5 miles over the speed limit or axe murdering a family of 8. so yeah, you're implying massive sin. and what you're implying is "keep popping out kids til your insides fall out, because that's apparently when a compelling medical reason will occur so you won't have to pop any more out".
 
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bach90

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sin is sin, whether it's driving 5 miles over the speed limit or axe murdering a family of 8. so yeah, you're implying massive sin. and what you're implying is "keep popping out kids til your insides fall out, because that's apparently when a compelling medical reason will occur so you won't have to pop any more out".

To your first point, if there's no difference between sin, it's completely absurd to say massive sin. If everything is the same, I can just as easily say everything is small sin. It's like saying all white is very white, not really, if it's all the same white it's just white.

To your second point, not really what I'm implying at all. I said "can objectively be viewed." You're taking my argument to a position where it really doesn't want to go.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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sin is sin, whether it's driving 5 miles over the speed limit or axe murdering a family of 8. so yeah, you're implying massive sin. and what you're implying is "keep popping out kids til your insides fall out, because that's apparently when a compelling medical reason will occur so you won't have to pop any more out".

I don't think he's saying "keep popping out kids..."

He's saying just what I've been saying. Yeah...there are times when birth control is sinful. I don't see how he's implying massive sin, either.

Bach has, for the most part, been imparting a truly scriptural position on the matter. As far as I can tell, he's been kinder than the ECF in stating it.
 
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Redhead11

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Has anyone posted a Scripture passage where it teaches that married couples are commanded to have children? I don't ever remember seeing such a command. If someone could post that for us, perhaps we'd have a better starting point for this discussion.

Seems like this topic has run its course.
 
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alexnbethmom

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Seems like this topic has run its course.

has it? i don't recall someone posting an actual bible verse that states "I have commanded that married couples must have children".

because if someone did, apparently i missed it.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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has it? i don't recall someone posting an actual bible verse that states "I have commanded that married couples must have children".

because if someone did, apparently i missed it.

That's because the bible doesn't say that God commanded that married couples must have children. I also don't believe anyone remotely has claimed that here either.

Trying to "start" a discussion on a strawman argument doesn't work either.
 
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Redhead11

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CF will not allow me to post a link until I reach 50 posts ... so here is an article to read that I thought was interesting. Scrutinize it at your leisure.

Many Christians struggle today with decisions regarding child spacing. On one hand, some maintain that any form of “family planning,” whether by contraception or periodic abstinence, is sinful because God alone has the right to “open and close the womb” (cf. Genesis 20:18; 29:31). Others dismiss altogether the practical application of Genesis’s mandate to “be fruitful and multiply” by asserting that the command was given to Adam and Eve alone, or by claiming that the precept has already been fulfilled such that the world is now irresponsibly overpopulated. What guidance does God’s Word provide?
The conclusion that married couples are not obligated to have any children is clearly un–Biblical. If children are not the only blessing that God gives, they are among the most important. The Scriptures repeatedly affirm that children are a “gift” and a “reward” from God.1 While it is true that God’s command to “be fruitful” cannot be understood to apply to every single human being, it is also clear that Genesis 1:28 is intrinsic to God’s plan for marriage.2 The command, which is also a blessing, is an archetypal marital vow by which God joins Adam and Eve together as man and wife: “And God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply….'” Christ, in Matthew 19, thus understands the teachings of Genesis 1–2 to apply not only to Adam and Eve, but to every married couple. Pious Jews also “married as a matter of duty in order to fulfill the command to 'be fruitful and multiply.'”3 Even were it true, the myth of “overpopulation“ would thus not justify a refusal to have children.4
Arguments against any form of child spacing defy Scripture and common sense. The Bible praises prudence, learning and skill and recognizes wisdom as a gift from God.5 That such prudence is to be used in providing for one's family is attested to in both Proverbs (31:10–31) and 1 Timothy (5:8). The fact that the command to be “fruitful” is immediately followed by God's decree to “subdue” the earth indicates that human fecundity is inseparable from responsible stewardship. Finally, that married couples are to intelligently discern when to conceive is specifically suggested in Ecclesiastes: “For everything there is a season… a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted… a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing” (3:5).6
So, what is the appropriate “time” for the marital embrace? To answer this question a couple must first determine if it is “time” to conceive a child. Second, and most obvious, the couple must embrace during the appropriate “season” — i.e. when the woman is most fertile.
Although no precise number can be given as to how many children a couple should have, prayer and a firm adherence to Christian charity must guide the decision. If God's command to be “fruitful” cannot be divorced from responsible stewardship, God places the priority on human fertility. Indeed, the command to be fruitful and subdue the earth is followed by a divine reminder that God Himself provides for His children.7 This is not to say childbirth may not be delayed in cases of dire poverty or crisis, but given the choice, for example, between buying a new car or a new house and having a baby, the blessings of children are to be preferred.8 Proverbs 30:8 suggests the model of frugal comfort applicable in most situations, “give me neither poverty nor riches.” The safest rule, as with tithing, is to give until it hurts.
As regards the second point, the context of Ecclesiastes 3 suggests that “embracing,” like planting and harvesting, properly occurs in a cyclical pattern. The pattern, like that of the four seasons of spring, summer, fall and winter, is discernable by man, but not subject to his dominion.9 As with any type of seed, the planting of human “seed” has its proper season. As Paul teaches, there also exists a “season,” even within marriage, for abstinence (1 Corinthians 7:5). What is this “season”?
For one, Leviticus required abstinence during and for seven days after a woman's menstrual period (15:19). Rabbis still commend such abstinence as a non–sexual means of strengthening the marital bond, and fertility experts have found that adherence to the Levitic rule reduces a woman's risk of vaginal infections and cervical cancer and substantially increases a couple–s chance of conceiving. While Christians are no longer bound to observe Leviticus– teaching, the Jewish law reminds us that a woman–s cycle follows a predictable and natural pattern of fertility and infertility. Following Ecclesiastes' counsel, a couple–s understanding and use of their own fertility should parallel that of the natural order. If a couple wishes to conceive, they should “embrace” at the proper time — i.e. when the woman is fertile. If a couple has discerned that they are not now being called to have children, they should submit to Paul's advice and abstain until the fertile “season” has passed. God's providence thus already provides for both fertile and infertile times that married couples can observe in order to intelligently plan their families.
The advent of the Pill makes it easy to ignore the simplicity of God’s design for marriage. In effect, the Pill and other contraceptives make it possible for a man and wife to come together without regard for their own fertility.10 The fact that the Pill can act as an abortifacient should be enough to prevent its use by Christian couples.11 Even if the Pill were not an abortifacient, however, both reason and faith argue against its use.
Reason easily discerns that human beings are not gods, but created beings subject to laws not of their own making. A truly pious approach to family planning must respect the fact that God has provided for a natural cycle of fertility and infertility. Paul reminds us of the necessity of revering God’s creative labors when he warns that the pagans should have clearly perceived “the truth about God” in “the things that have been made” — i.e. the natural order (Romans 1).
By contrast, the impious man assumes that he can create, as it were, ex nihilo — ignoring, or completely altering nature as he desires. Technology, like that which the Pill embodies, is inherently impious because it does not work with nature, but completely ignores the rules of God’s created order. By contrast, family planning methods, such as the Sympto–Thermal Method and the Billings Method, work with and according to a couple’s natural cycles of fertility and infertility.
Understood in this light, “natural” family planning methods are not “natural” because they are not made by human beings or not scientific, but natural because they work according to God's vision for human life. Indeed, the wise discernment and use of these rules is precisely what responsible stewardship requires. By contrast, the use of contraception subverts God's law by making man the lord and master — not the steward — of the divine gift of human fertility.
God's Word is also clear that human sexuality is not to be manipulated as man wills, but should conform itself to God's desire. God demands that the exercise of human sexuality occur exclusively within a covenantal marriage between a man and a woman. The violation of this law was often punishable by death, as in the cases of homosexuality, certain forms of incest, adultery and bestiality (Leviticus 18:22; 20:14; 20:10; 18:23).
Within the context of marital sexuality, the only offense that merits death was committed by Onan (Genesis 38:16). Today, many commentators deny that Onan's sin was in any way related to an abuse of God's gift of human fertility. The Tyndale Life Application Study Bible, for example, comments that “God killed Onan because he refused to fulfill his obligation to his brother and Tamar.” The New American Catholic Bible is even more explicit: “Éit is primarily Onan's violation of this law [the law of levirate marriage], rather than the means he used to circumvent it, that brought on him God’s displeasure.”12
The obvious objection to the above interpretation is that the refusal to adhere to the levirate (“brother–in–law”) custom by which a man married his brother's widow is nowhere else punished by death, but only a mild form of public humiliation (Deuteronomy 25:5–10). Further, unlike the “unshod” brother in Deuteronomy 25, Onan cannot even be accused of having violated a divine command.13
Others argue that Onan deserved to die because his failure to perpetuate his brother's line was a form of fratricide. The same charge, however, would have to be made against the unfaithful brother of Deuteronomy 25. For what reason did Onan merit the harsher punishment?
It is also unlikely that Onan was killed for breaking his marriage vows to Tamar. Jewish tradition prescribes divorce, not death, for a man who refuses to perform the duty appropriate to a husband. And while a couple that does not fulfill the command to “multiply” may come under intense social pressure to have children or divorce, this author could find no case in either Scripture or tradition that punished such an omission with death. Finally, had Onan merely failed to fulfill the terms of his marital contract with Tamar, why does the Bible passage go into such explicit detail?14
Jewish commentators, not to mention plain common sense as defined by most dictionaries, have thus never ceased to understand the sin of Onan to consist of coitus interruptus and, by extension, masturbation. The Encyclopedia Judaica sums up the traditional teaching regarding Genesis 38, concluding that “the Talmud sternly inveighs against 'bringing forth seed in vain.'”15 For this reason, condoms and some uterine devices are not permitted under Jewish law.16
Until quite recently, most Christian theologians also disapproved of birth control in the harshest of terms. Augustine warned that contraception turned a wife into a harlot and the marital act into a “shameful union,” which “by changing the natural use into that which is against nature… is more damnable when it is done in the case of husband or wife.” Similarly, Martin Luther, calling Onan's sin “far more atrocious than incest and adultery,” reminds us that “at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed.” John Calvin likewise described Onan’s deed as “doubly monstrous.” Modern theologians, such as Theodore Laetsch, Herbert Carl Leupold, Arthur Pink and John Skinner, are also critical of contraception. As Laetsch puts it, “Birth control by means of anticonceptuals, coitus interruptus, etc. is ruthlessly interfering with God's method of creating a living being.” To this Pink adds, “We do not believe in what is termed 'birth control,' but we do earnestly urge self–control.”17
“Self–control” or periodic abstinence is the only form of child spacing that is in accord with both faith and reason. If God did not pardon Onan — who, it must be remembered, was not party to the Mosaic covenant — how can we who have been blessed with the fullness of God's revelation continue to condone contraception? God himself has established the “seasons” and “times” appropriate to marital sexuality. Let us rejoice in the dignity of God’s creation by submitting to the goodness of His will.
 
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alexnbethmom

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PW, i am not trying to start a discussion on a "strawman" argument, and that is EXACTLY what some on here are claiming!! that married couples MUST have children!! why else would kae have been given such a hard time, and why else would it have been said that the only reason for marriage is to procreate and rear children??

please don't try and gaslight me and make it sound like i'm crazy - i know exactly what i've read.
 
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WildStrawberry

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That's because the bible doesn't say that God commanded that married couples must have children. I also don't believe anyone remotely has claimed that here either.

Trying to "start" a discussion on a strawman argument doesn't work either.

I beg to differ. Several people here, yourself included, have said or inferred that married people have to have kids. Perhaps not in so many words, but certainly by saying that deciding not to have them is a "selfish desire" and a "sinful act" or by saying that the main or one of the main purposes of marriage is to have children. (Scriptural or not, it's still y'all saying "you gotta have kids if you're married")

There is quite a bit of the "if you chose to not have children, you're selfish" going on in this thread. As a person who chose not to have children WAY WAY WAY before I was even married or even contemplating marriage, (and FTR, I married AFTER I had my life saving hysterectomy. 2 1/2 years after.) my decision was never based on anything close to me being selfish. I was prepared to remain unmarried if that was what God wanted. I can't see how that is selfish...especially since Paul said that it's better to remain that way than to marry.

I thought about my feelings, on the selfish statements, and I realized that I really resent people who know nothing about me and about my thought processes and the prayers, the many conversations with my Pastor, and YEARS of feeling inadequate and like a second class human being, making judgements about me and others like me just because they look down on us for choosing to be responsible, mature individuals who chose to be Aunts and Uncles instead of parents.

My husband read through the thread last night and stated "You know, according to these people, I should divorce you and marry someone who can bear my progeny. That's just wrong." He's right. He also said "It assumes that the only reason to get married is to produce children. How is that in anyway fair? Should you just wear out your uterus, if you had one, just so you can get to Heaven?" Hmm...a little works righteousness here??

I said in an earlier thread that Adam and Eve, to our knowledge, had no children while in the Garden. We don't learn that they were even sexually active until they were out of the Garden. This suggests to me that Man and Woman were meant to come together as partners, helpers, friends, and perhaps...we don't know...lovers...First. The command to be fruitful and multiply came AFTER the fall from Grace.

Is it really so very hard to believe that an all powerful, all knowing God could possibly know enough about His children that He would create some that were meant to be something OTHER THAN Parents? It's been said before in this thread that we shouldn't second guess God, but is that ONLY when it comes to those positive on the subject of having children?

I realize that there are many verses in the Bible to support your position, but I remember a verse that talks about the end times (we're in them) and a time when the barren were to be more blessed than those with children. I can't for the life of me find it...if someone can help, I'd love a bump to the memory...but I know it's there.

All I know is, I trust in God. I trust that His will is being carried out in my life even as we "speak". I love Him and I turn to Him in every aspect of life.
 
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bach90

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Has anyone posted a Scripture passage where it teaches that married couples are commanded to have children? I don't ever remember seeing such a command. If someone could post that for us, perhaps we'd have a better starting point for this discussion.

I said in the OP that I viewed Genesis 1:28 as a command and not a simple blessing.

I also think it runs implicitly throughout the Bible that children are a blessing from the Lord (Ps. 127, 1 Chro 25:5). If children are a blessing from God and if we pray for God's blessings, then why would we want to limit God's blessings? Unless we no longer view children as a blessing, but as a burden.

I also pointed out some Scripture in an earlier post.

I don't state that couples must have children to be a valid marriage. I've stated that the primary purpose of marriage is childbearing and the primary function of marital relations is to produce children. The marital act then, I believe, has to always be open to the possibility of life. Birth control frustrates God's design, God designed the reproductive consequences of the marital act for a reason, it's not just for playing around. I've also stated that a barren couple may be able to live out the office of father and mother in other ways, particularly through adoption.

People should try reading WHAT I post not what they THINK I post.

Seems like this topic has run its course.

Maybe.
 
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WildStrawberry

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I've stated that the primary purpose of marriage is childbearing and the primary function of marital relations is to produce children.

I disagree. From a purely scientific point, if the primary function of sex is to produce progeny, women would be constantly "in season" and able to have children at anytime. Like animals.
 
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cerette

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I can't see that the *primary purpose* of marriage is to have kids. God saw that it was not good for Adam to be alone, so He created a helper for him. That seems to me to be the primary purpose--having a "life mate". (Correct me if I'm wrong, please. I have not spent too much time thinking and studying this thing, so I could very well have missed some important point.)
So as I continue pondering the question regarding birth control, I must find another reason or reasons to come to a correct understanding.
 
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alexnbethmom

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the primary purpose of marriage is childbearing and the primary function of marital relations is to produce children

hmmm - sounds exactly like what i said was being said!!

i've been told that i should just stop reading and responding here, but it's like a train wreck and i can't help myself.

i believe you are wrong - i believe the primary purpose of marriage is to be a companion and helpmate. not a baby factory.

flowers are considered to be a blessing from God by most people - but some people are allergic to them and therefore might be considered somewhat of a burden, especially if in too close a proximity to them. children ARE A BLESSING, WITHOUT A DOUBT, but not everybody is MEANT TO BE A PARENT!!!!!!!

all i can say is, thank GOD for Jesus, that He died for me, that He loves me, even though i'm a rotten horrible sinner, and thank God we will be having Confession and Absolution, and the Lord's Supper on Sunday, cos after this thread, i absolutely need it.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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Flowers being compared to children? Is that what the discussion has been reduced to? *facepalm*

I'm with Bach on one thing. Clearly some people have read too much into what is being said, while ignoring key scripture. Perhaps it *would* be wiser for those people to end their participation in the thread if they're going to continue to ignore parts and read too much into what is being said.

I do not believe that a marriage MUST bear children but I do believe that children, as a blessing from God and as a result of sex, which is to be for the marriage bed, ARE a big portion of marriage. To ignore that is in fact ignoring what the bible tells us about marriage, sex and children.

And thinking that Adam and Eve didn't enjoy the blessings of the marriage bed while in the garden is pure speculation. Why would they be denied that while in the garden? What possible logic and what possible justification would there be for that?
 
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