Contraception

[alexnbethmom]

you didn't answer my question.

 

[DaRev]

and God doesn't?

Of course He knows. And 5 is it. That is what He has blessed us with. He's also blessed us with the wisdom and the ability to know when enough is enough.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Of course He knows. And 5 is it. That is what He has blessed us with. He's also blessed us with the wisdom and the ability to know when enough is enough.

Thank you...that's all I was looking for.


Even still, your position is still different than from what I think we're really talking about. We're all in our forties and we actually did have kids.

Would you, as a pastor, counsel a married couple who doesn't want to have kids that it's the right attitude to take?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

you didn't answer my question.

about medicine to prevent illness and whatnot?

Do you really want me to answer that? Because right now you sound very close to those who believe pregnancy is a condition, and I'm sure that's not the impression you want to give.,

 

[alexnbethmom]

i do not believe pregnancy is a condition - it is not a condition. but that still does not answer my question. God has given us the reasoning to go to the doctor to get medicine when we are sick. God has also given us the reasoning to know when we have had enough children for our family, or if we know that for our particular family (a generic family, not my family) we wish not to have children at all. this does not make pregnancy or children a condition. it means making reasonable choices for our families.

 

[alexnbethmom]

He's also blessed us with the wisdom and the ability to know when enough is enough.

Thank you...that's all I was looking for.

isn't that pretty much exactly what i said??

 

[cerette]

This is not to any one person in particular, but just a general comment. We might think that we can't afford to have any more kids, but the Bible says that God will provide, and that we should be content with what we have even if that means that we can't afford to send our kids to college. Perhaps some of us will have to tell our kids that they have to take student loans if they wish to go to college.
Also, in my opinion that medical/health argument isn't waterproof either. My Mom was told by a doctor that she and her baby would die if she didn't have an abortion. My Mom refused, and gave birth to a healthy child, and had a bunch more after that one too!
SO..God is in control. He can help us through situations that seem impossible to us.
(No, I am not saying that no women ever die during childbirth or pregnancy, or that we should all just be irresponsible and have tons of kids who won't go to college.)
I too think that the motive behind our not wanting kids is an important factor when determining whether or not contraceptives are wrong in our specific situation.

 

[WildStrawberry]

so - again, i ask, people who truly wish to remain absolutely childless (and i have one person in mind, and you know who i'm talking about.)

Gee, I wonder just who that could be. Hmmm...

Usually when my friends ask me those kind of questions, I ask why they don't put their trust in the Lord.

You know, DaSem told me that once a few years back and I'll reply with what I said to him. I do trust in the Lord. I trust Him to give me the wisdom to know myself and I trust Him to know the plans He has for me.

I am not childless. I am childfree. I actively chose to not have children. I knew when I was 15 that I didn't want to have kids of my own. I prayed over it for years. You know what? God knew what He was doing. I didn't marry until I was 38. I was two years post hysterectomy/uterine cancer treatment. Before the cancer, M and I discussed family planning and decided he'd be snipped. After I was spayed, he rejoiced that he didn't have to endanger the boys. It's a choice. A hard choice but one I do not, and never have had, regrets over.

My question to you is, why didn't you trust God in regards to your husband's fertility? Didn't you trust Him enough to keep you healthy through a fifth pregnancy? Of course you did, but you made the choice to be parents of four and not more. Don't I have the same trust, and right?

But, really...don't you think God knows what he's doing when children are born? The bible specifically says children are a blessing from God.

Children are an amazing blessing and I rejoice when they're born. I've never been a "baby person". Baby showers are nice but I get the, "but you'd be a great mom!" They're right. I'd be the best Mom ever. But it wasn't in God's plan.

But for all this, I can't say I have no kids. After 25+ years of teaching Sunday School I have kids. I have 5 Godchildren. 2 nieces and 2 nephews and a grandnephew. I have kids who are parents themselves come "home" and come to Sunday School and make a beeline to my room to give me a hug and show me off to their kids, often calling me their "church mom". God knew what He was doing. I couldn't have been the person they needed, the person I am, if I had biological kids.

 

[alexnbethmom]

absolutely excellent post, strawberry, and spot on.....thank you for your insight and input....

and childfree was what i meant, not childless....please forgive me...

 

[DaRev]

Would you, as a pastor, counsel a married couple who doesn't want to have kids that it's the right attitude to take?

Absolutely, as that may very well be the Lord's will for them.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Absolutely, as that may very well be the Lord's will for them.

Then they wouldn't need birth control, would they?


As far as whether we trusted the Lord, we did. More than likely there was too much damage done to my girly parts to have more children. Unfortunately our hospital was Catholic and they refused to perform a hysterectomy, even though it was a medical reason. I still have issues but we're still not in an area where they'll just do that on a younger woman.

I think if you believe God *wants* you childless, you may be using the wrong terminology. We're far too busy saying what God wants for us and not reading and seeing what he actually desires for us.

 

[WildStrawberry]

I never said God WANTED me to be childfree. I said that He knew His plans for me.

I'm 43, I have cancer, diabetes, fibromyalgia, severe clinical depression, severe panic disorder,and a number of other things I don't care to introduce to the world. If I had given in to society's demand that I have kids, there is no way I could be a Mom to them. (Remember, I didn't marry until I was 38) IF I could have gotten pregnant the first year we were married, I'd have a 4 year old. I know my stamina and I know what it's like to chase after 4 year olds. That kid would have been taken away because I could not keep up. Heck, I can barely keep up with just M and I.

God knows the plans He has for us. I believe that God allowed me to be childfree in my heart because He knew I would never have children. Compassionately, He took the desire from me so I wouldn't be burdened with the despair of being childless. He has given me kids in abundance. I love them and they love me. They just don't happen to be mine in the conventional way.

 

[Luther073082]

Then they wouldn't need birth control, would they?


As far as whether we trusted the Lord, we did. More than likely there was too much damage done to my girly parts to have more children. Unfortunately our hospital was Catholic and they refused to perform a hysterectomy, even though it was a medical reason. I still have issues but we're still not in an area where they'll just do that on a younger woman.

I think if you believe God *wants* you childless, you may be using the wrong terminology. We're far too busy saying what God wants for us and not reading and seeing what he actually desires for us.

But lets look at the counter to that. If God's will was for them to have children, the birth control wouldn't work.

 

[alexnbethmom]

But lets look at the counter to that. If God's will was for them to have children, the birth control wouldn't work.

exactly.

 

[bach90]

I'm not following the line of reasoning that if God wanted them to have children, the birth control wouldn't work.

I would propose that God wants people to have children, that is why he designed the mechanics behind it to work most of the time. It is people, when they don't want it to work, that decide to frustrate it. Could God make the birth control not work, of course, but we can't decide to throw obstacles in God's path and then tell him to get around them if he really wants something. In short, the norm has to prevail, not the exception to the norm. In this case, the norm is sex without any form of birth control, birth control is going around what God has already designed. Picture if you will a racetrack, and then throwing a giant stone in between the start and the finish line, could a runner get around it, maybe, but why'd you have to go put the rock there in the first place?

We, of course, trust that God's will will prevail. That doesn't mean that we don't refrain from destructive choices. An extreme example, I can't decide to add some heroin to my morning coffee just because I trust that it's God's will that he will protect me as I rise. A less extreme example, I take it as a given that God will protect me in my travels, it doesn't mean that I won't have a car with seat belts and air bags.

As far as a couple discerning what God's will is for them, what are you using to discern it? The Bible, the Lutheran Confessions, the writings of the Church fathers and theologians? Or, are you just using your thoughts and saying that is God's will. Too often, particularly in these matters related to sex and the family (because they are so personal) I think people justify their beliefs by saying, "It's God's will" without providing the evidence of how they came to that conclusion.


Too many people think they can't have children, and of course I will grant medical exceptions. But, if a mother of 9 children with an alcoholic deadbeat husband and no money to their name decided to use birth control, then I wouldn't be able to enjoy Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. God has a way of working around our limitations, or even through them in Beethoven's case.

 

[alexnbethmom]

you're kidding me, right? you don't get the line of reasoning?

my sister got pregnant 3 times using birth control. there's your line of reasoning.

 

[bach90]

you're kidding me, right? you don't get the line of reasoning?

my sister got pregnant 3 times using birth control. there's your line of reasoning.

No, I'm not kidding you.

Your one case only proves that birth control, which is not effective 100% of the time, failed. It does not prove that the pregnancies were an act of God's will.

 

[cerette]

How do you guys define "God's will" in this discussion?

 

[bach90]

How do you guys define "God's will" in this discussion?

What he has revealed through his Holy Word, that is, the canonical Scriptures.

 

[alexnbethmom]

It does not prove that the pregnancies were an act of God's will.

oh ok - so it's only an act of God's will if you deem it so. makes sense.