Contraception

[bach90]

a couple diagnosed as barren wouldn't be using birth control.

i'm done with this conversation.

Of course they wouldn't. So what?

Well, at least, they probably wouldn't. Of course you're falsely assuming that birth control is only prescribed for contraception, they are also given for women who don't have regular periods so that they can regulate the menstrual cycle, they're given for PMS, and even given for acne. So an infertile couple could still theoretically be on birth control.

Condoms also are sometimes used for reasons other than birth control. To gather the byproduct for IUI for example. Also in rare cases where a woman has high level of antibodies to her partner's fluids, condoms are sometimes prescribed.

Medical use of contraception can sometimes be justified if the contraceptive effect is not intended. As is the case if estrogen is prescribed for one of the above uses. However, in cases we've been discussing, the effect desired is not medical, but purely to have sexual pleasure without the primary aim of sexual action, childbirth.

 

[WildStrawberry]

You know, I was thinking about this this morning and it occurs to me, Adam and Eve, as we're told in the Book of Genesis, didn't have children in the Garden. They were, literally in Eve's case, made for each other. They were made to be each other's help meet.

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,

“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

Now it can be debated that "one flesh" is a child or it could mean, as its shown in Job where Job's wife wasn't affected in the destruction of Job's family, that the husband and wife become a "unit" or "as one".

In any case, all I can say as to what I used as a guide for "God's will" is how, after hours and hours of prayer, I am as I am, childfree and content with kids overflowing my life. I have never taken contraceptives for the intended purpose (I had to use them for a period problem but they made me sick and we discontinued them) and, in my very misspent youth, I never once even had a scare. *shrug* YMMV but I think that's some Divine intervention right there.

 

[WildStrawberry]

I'd be willing to bet that if you could've had kids without the worry, you would've done it in a heartbeat.

Nope. Remember, I was *15* when I realized I didn't want children. I have never been a person that cared all that much about babies and the younger crowd. Meaning, everyone fights to hold the baby, I gladly let them do it. I've never had a "Mommy hormone" where I felt the longing for kids or felt my clock ticking. I was philosophical in that, if I got pregnant, I'd have been happy because, hey babies are a joy. But I never wanted to try. There isn't any motivation behind my decision other than that there was never any motivation to start with.

I vehemently disagree with the "it's different when it's your own" because, if that were true, we wouldn't have the plague of child abuse that is rampant. Nor would we, imho, have the plague of abortion...people would be happier to be pregnant, to be parents, if it were "different".

Besides, what if it ISN'T different? What if I hated the kid? I mean, you can't euthanize them, you can't take them to the shelter and you can't toss them out of a moving car on the side of the road, right? So you're stuck. (Of course, those are extremes. I wouldn't do any of those to a cat or dog, so I certainly wouldn't do it to a child!)

When I went through the emergency hysterectomy that saved my life, my Dad; in the interest of not wanting me to feel like I was missing out on anything just in case my childfreeness was an attempt to cover up sadness over not being able to have kids, started to push the topic of adoption. M and I gave real consideration to this. I started praying and asking if THIS is what He wanted me to do. But, when it came down to it, I just didn't have the desire. It simply was not there.

I understand that this feeling, or absolute lack of feeling, is unfathomable to those who are happily childed. Believe me when I say it's equally unfathomable to ME why people WANT children. I just don't have that mindset. Kids are nice and I get along great with the older ones, but it never makes me think "gee, if I could have only had one of my own". *shrug* You can say I'm selfish if you'd like, but I like my life as is. It's made me a good teacher and friend to the kids in my life. And that's good enough for me.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

That's probably the coldest argument for not having children that I've ever seen.

I read your situation incorrectly.

I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

I guess the fact that you never used birth control for its intended purpose is something, but the way you view the idea of having *your own* children is somewhat frightening. I guess you're that person who always liked other people's kids because you could give them back when you were done with them.

It's easy to be a "parent" when you're not dealing with the very real responsibilities of being a parent.

You may find this attitude uncaring, and that's fine. I never worried that I would hate my children so I simply cannot fathom the reasoning behind it. I have always trusted that God would not give me more than I could handle and I assumed most other Christians felt the same way.

 

[cerette]

Clearly this topic is very personal to many of us and causes a lot of emotions to overflow.
If anyone knows any facts about how the earlier Christians reasoned when birth control first became available, I would be very interested in hearing.
As for me, I am still struggling with the question and don't know the answer.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Clearly this topic is very personal to many of us and causes a lot of emotions to overflow.
If anyone knows any facts about how the earlier Christians reasoned when birth control first became available, I would be very interested in hearing.
As for me, I am still struggling with the question and don't know the answer.

From a quickie google search (meaning I haven't really looked AT the page, just the quotes)

Home Page

ETA: Pretty harsh words, actually, especially from Martin Luther. Not surprising.

 

[DaRev]

That's probably the coldest argument for not having children that I've ever seen.

I read your situation incorrectly.

I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

I guess the fact that you never used birth control for its intended purpose is something, but the way you view the idea of having *your own* children is somewhat frightening. I guess you're that person who always liked other people's kids because you could give them back when you were done with them.

It's easy to be a "parent" when you're not dealing with the very real responsibilities of being a parent.

You may find this attitude uncaring, and that's fine. I never worried that I would hate my children so I simply cannot fathom the reasoning behind it. I have always trusted that God would not give me more than I could handle and I assumed most other Christians felt the same way.

Do you ever even THINK before you type things?

 

[Redhead11]

I have a few points.

1. None of us can fulfill this command perfectly. Yes, this is a command (ie law) and yes, this is God pleasing. But think about it ... when was the last time you fulfilled any law perfectly? You haven't ... not even in reproduction. If you say you have, then you are saying "I have not sinned" in which you have deceived yourself, for we sin in thought, word and deed ... by what we have done and what we have left undone.
-- Some of us had raging hormones which resulted in thoughts of leaving our spouse if only we didn't have these children!
-- Some of us had a surprise pregnancy which happened at what we thought was a "horrible time" and so we sinned in our thoughts.
-- The list can go on and on... Just remember that all sin is the same except the sin of rejecting of rejecting Christ (blaphemy). So the fact that you were enraged at that driver who cut you off on the road is just as bad of a sin as the one who doesn't want to have children.

2. We don't need to be "tools" for the Devil who is The Accuser. IOW, we don't need to accuse our neighbor or make them feel bad for not having children or for having a set amount of children and then using contraception.

In the end God uses all things for good. Just as with a friend of mine who had premarital sex at age 17. She ended up pregnant. The world judged her for her sin, yet once she turned 21yrs old, she was diagnosed with a condition that prevented her from having children. She was born with this condition. Due to sin in the world, her body was not perfect and the ONLY time she could have had children was during the time she was a teenager. She is blessed to have them and is a wonderful mother.

Looking at Wildstrawberry one can think that maybe God prepared her mind to remain barren because her body wasn't going to be able to have children as she had to undergo a life saving hysterectomy as an adult.

In the Bible there ARE barren men and women. Funny how no one points fingers at the men ...

Those are just my 2 pennies ...

 

[alexnbethmom]

That's probably the coldest argument for not having children that I've ever seen.

I read your situation incorrectly.

I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

I guess the fact that you never used birth control for its intended purpose is something, but the way you view the idea of having *your own* children is somewhat frightening. I guess you're that person who always liked other people's kids because you could give them back when you were done with them.

It's easy to be a "parent" when you're not dealing with the very real responsibilities of being a parent.

You may find this attitude uncaring, and that's fine. I never worried that I would hate my children so I simply cannot fathom the reasoning behind it. I have always trusted that God would not give me more than I could handle and I assumed most other Christians felt the same way.

wow - you're actually going to call your friend "cold" and "frightening" because she knew she didn't want children, that she didn't have the temperament or patience to raise children? that is truly sad.....

there are people who don't have the temperament or patience to raise children, who NEVER should have children, who end up having them anyway - and then terrible things end up happening to those children. then we wring our hands and say "those people should never had had children to begin with!!" i am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying such would be the case here, but for her to know, emphatically, that children were NOT what she wanted, she SHOULD NOT be beaten up over that, and instead told "you made the right decision for you and your family".

good. GRIEF.

 

[Redhead11]

I don't think Wildstrawberry would make for a bad mother Alexbethmom. She may have been a good one. Just as some who can have children, but whose husband cannot give her children wouldn't be a bad parent. Sin is in the world causing some to have and other not to have children. In the end, this will not determine a person's salvation. God's will for each person is different. We are not all in the same "box".

 

[alexnbethmom]

I don't think Wildstrawberry would make for a bad mother Alexbethmom. She may have been a good one. Just as some who can have children, but whose husband cannot give her children wouldn't be a bad parent. Sin is in the world causing some to have and other not to have children. In the end, this will not determine a person's salvation. God's will for each person is different. We are not all in the same "box".

i never said she would have been a bad mother. and more importantly, SHE knows i never said that.

and exactly - each person is different, we are not all in the same box. not all are meant to be mothers.

 

[WildStrawberry]

I've never believed I was "parenting" other people's kids nor did I infer that. Yes, it is way easier to give them back when I'm done with them and when you become a Grandparent, you’ll learn that as well. (My Mom told me that so I guess she knows what she's talking about) Frankly, I don’t like most people’s children at all until they’re old enough to have an intelligent conversation. I didn’t babysit much for this very reason. My Sunday school kids call me “church mom” because they think it’s funny. I consider them my kids, my friends and I love them as if they were my own. I thank God that they aren’t, however.

One thing I must point out, I do always trust that God would never give me more than I can handle - why would you assume that I wouldn't? And, in that light, I BELIEVE that He did not give me children, because I personally was not able to deal with that. He, in His infinite wisdom, also did not give me a desire to have children - very likely because He also saw that I would not be suitable as a parent, and therefore did not burden me with a desire that could not be fulfilled. I think, if it were His will that I be a parent, I would be a parent. I mean, I battled and battle cancer after all. I have strength through Christ.

I find this response very hurtful and offensive and see it as perhaps maybe you are second-guessing God and the way He deals with His many and varied children. Not everyone is built the way you are, not everyone is born longing to be a parent. And you know what, that's OK. God loves us all the same. I understand and accept that you can’t fathom why I wouldn’t want children. I just ask that you accept that I can’t fathom why you would want them. I wasn’t built that way. *shrug*

You may think my reactions and decisions are "cold". Perhaps they are. But they're also realistic. Abortion, Abuse and Neglect are daily problems that affect people from ALL walks of life. And they're NOT limited to non-Christians. Telling those struggling with abuse and neglect that they aren’t good Christians or that they are sinners because they have a different situation than you have, is pretty Pharisaical. Emotionally abusing the people who disagree with you is reprehensible. We all need to remember that it’s GOD who is in control of His children and His will is done for those who trust in Him.

 

[bach90]

I have a few points.

1. None of us can fulfill this command perfectly. Yes, this is a command (ie law) and yes, this is God pleasing. But think about it ... when was the last time you fulfilled any law perfectly? You haven't ... not even in reproduction. If you say you have, then you are saying "I have not sinned" in which you have deceived yourself, for we sin in thought, word and deed ... by what we have done and what we have left undone.
-- Some of us had raging hormones which resulted in thoughts of leaving our spouse if only we didn't have these children!
-- Some of us had a surprise pregnancy which happened at what we thought was a "horrible time" and so we sinned in our thoughts.
-- The list can go on and on... Just remember that all sin is the same except the sin of rejecting of rejecting Christ (blaphemy). So the fact that you were enraged at that driver who cut you off on the road is just as bad of a sin as the one who doesn't want to have children.

2. We don't need to be "tools" for the Devil who is The Accuser. IOW, we don't need to accuse our neighbor or make them feel bad for not having children or for having a set amount of children and then using contraception.

In the end God uses all things for good. Just as with a friend of mine who had premarital sex at age 17. She ended up pregnant. The world judged her for her sin, yet once she turned 21yrs old, she was diagnosed with a condition that prevented her from having children. She was born with this condition. Due to sin in the world, her body was not perfect and the ONLY time she could have had children was during the time she was a teenager. She is blessed to have them and is a wonderful mother.

Looking at Wildstrawberry one can think that maybe God prepared her mind to remain barren because her body wasn't going to be able to have children as she had to undergo a life saving hysterectomy as an adult.

In the Bible there ARE barren men and women. Funny how no one points fingers at the men ...

Those are just my 2 pennies ...

Inability to fulfill the law is no excuse to not try and fulfill it. Of course, I'm one of those insane heretical Lutherans that believes in the third use of the law...

However, we can and must gently point out that contraception is a sin just as we would if a friend was committing other sins.

Of course, not pointing out the men is a veiled assault on women's rights. In actuality, there are barren men in the Bible, Jeremiah was commanded not to marry or have children as a symbol of the barrenness that Israel would have. In fact Deut 23:1 excludes a man from the assembly if he doesn't have the "equipment" to have children. Obviously doesn't apply to us today, but, I think what is idefinitely relevant is when the word "pharmakeia" appears in passages like Rev 9:21 or Gal 5:20 where it is translated as "sorcery." In other Greek literature, pharmakeia refers to the mixing of potions for secretive purposes. It is not out of the question that contraceptive purposes are in the mind of the writers here.

As has been correctly demonstrated, the ECF's, and Luther, and the Scriptures all speak harshly against birth control for a couple's convenience.

 

[WildStrawberry]

Okay, this one is totally tongue in cheek...

Bach you wrote that "Inability to fulfill the law is no excuse to not try and fulfill it. Of course, I'm one of those insane heretical Lutherans that believes in the third use of the law..."

I'm unable to fulfill this law but I can guarantee you, I'm having no problems TRYING to fulfill it.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Do you ever even THINK before you type things?

Yes, I actually thought LONG AND HARD about what I wrote. Just because you disagree with it doesn't give you the right to insult me.

wow - you're actually going to call your friend "cold" and "frightening" because she knew she didn't want children, that she didn't have the temperament or patience to raise children? that is truly sad.....

I said I found the logic to be those things. I don't have to agree with everything my friends say just because they're my friends.

there are people who don't have the temperament or patience to raise children, who NEVER should have children, who end up having them anyway - and then terrible things end up happening to those children. then we wring our hands and say "those people should never had had children to begin with!!" i am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying such would be the case here, but for her to know, emphatically, that children were NOT what she wanted, she SHOULD NOT be beaten up over that, and instead told "you made the right decision for you and your family".

good. GRIEF.

When I say I don't necessarily agree with her logic, why then would I say "you made the right decision for you and your family"? Perhaps I don't believe she made the right decision.

Are there some people who shouldn't have children? Quite possibly...but that doesn't change the fact that children are still a blessing from God.

If we suddenly decided to stop having children because of all the bad things that could happen, NO ONE WOULD EVER HAVE CHILDREN.


****


I am interested to see anyone else's comments on the ECF and birth control.

Would seem to me that they pretty much condemned its use.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Okay, this one is totally tongue in cheek...

Bach you wrote that "Inability to fulfill the law is no excuse to not try and fulfill it. Of course, I'm one of those insane heretical Lutherans that believes in the third use of the law..."

I'm unable to fulfill this law but I can guarantee you, I'm having no problems TRYING to fulfill it.

You realize you owe me a new keyboard.

That was one thing that my husband and I loved to tell people while we were trying to conceive the first time around (it felt like it took forever even though it only took 8 months) - we were having a great time trying no matter what.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I've never believed I was "parenting" other people's kids nor did I infer that. Yes, it is way easier to give them back when I'm done with them and when you become a Grandparent, you’ll learn that as well. (My Mom told me that so I guess she knows what she's talking about) Frankly, I don’t like most people’s children at all until they’re old enough to have an intelligent conversation. I didn’t babysit much for this very reason. My Sunday school kids call me “church mom” because they think it’s funny. I consider them my kids, my friends and I love them as if they were my own. I thank God that they aren’t, however.

One thing I must point out, I do always trust that God would never give me more than I can handle - why would you assume that I wouldn't? And, in that light, I BELIEVE that He did not give me children, because I personally was not ready to deal with that. He, in His infinite wisdom, also did not give me a desire to have children - very likely because He also saw that I would not be suitable as a parent, and therefore did not burden me with a desire that could not be fulfilled. I think, if it were His will that I be a parent, I would be a parent. I mean, I battled and battle cancer after all. I have strength through Christ.

I find this response very hurtful and offensive and see it as perhaps maybe you are second-guessing God and the way He deals with His many and varied children. Not everyone is built the way you are, not everyone is born longing to be a parent. And you know what, that's OK. God loves us all the same. I understand and accept that you can’t fathom why I wouldn’t want children. I just ask that you accept that I can’t fathom why you would want them. I wasn’t built that way. *shrug*

You may think my reactions and decisions are "cold". Perhaps they are. But they're also realistic. Abortion, Abuse and Neglect are daily problems that affect people from ALL walks of life. And they're NOT limited to non-Christians. Telling those struggling with abuse and neglect that they aren’t good Christians or that they are sinners because they have a different situation than you have, is pretty Pharisaical. Emotionally abusing the people who disagree with you is reprehensible. We all need to remember that it’s GOD who is in control of His children and His will is done for those who trust in Him.

I didn't realize that disagreeing with your logic meant I was telling you that you weren't a good Christian or that I was emotionally abusing you.

I simply responded to the message you put out there. My responses were real - it is what I felt when I read it. I even had my husband read it, just in case I was experiencing some weird PMS thing. I did not tell him my reaction to it, but I can tell you that his was pretty much the same thing.

The thing is, there's never a good time to bring a child into this world. That child may have a horrible life. He may die early. His father may abuse him. He might get bullied at school. He might get cancer. The list can go on and on. But he is still a child of God, and that's what matters.

 

[Redhead11]

Inability to fulfill the law is no excuse to not try and fulfill it. Of course, I'm one of those insane heretical Lutherans that believes in the third use of the law...

However, we can and must gently point out that contraception is a sin just as we would if a friend was committing other sins.

Of course, not pointing out the men is a veiled assault on women's rights. In actuality, there are barren men in the Bible, Jeremiah was commanded not to marry or have children as a symbol of the barrenness that Israel would have. In fact Deut 23:1 excludes a man from the assembly if he doesn't have the "equipment" to have children. Obviously doesn't apply to us today, but, I think what is idefinitely relevant is when the word "pharmakeia" appears in passages like Rev 9:21 or Gal 5:20 where it is translated as "sorcery." In other Greek literature, pharmakeia refers to the mixing of potions for secretive purposes. It is not out of the question that contraceptive purposes are in the mind of the writers here.

As has been correctly demonstrated, the ECF's, and Luther, and the Scriptures all speak harshly against birth control for a couple's convenience.

LOL! Bach,
Okay, then this means that I am aloud by your logic to tell you that there is no excuse for the sin you are demonstrating on this board. While I too respect all three uses of the law equally. What you are demonstrating is a man with little grace and dignity as you MUST show how correct and wise you are. If Christ acted this way, he would have argued with the woman at the well and pounded her for her sins as you have done on this thread.

We all agree that this command is God pleasing. But not everyone is able to follow it. If they were, then why would we need Christ?

So to be consistant Bach, you too must at least try. Try to respect God's children who have saving faith and have had to deal with this struggle. Love them as Christ loved and forgave you and your sins.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

God told the woman at the well to "go and sin no more".

 

[alexnbethmom]

of course children are a blessing from God - who in the world, or who in this thread, even, said that they weren't???

andrea yates should NOT have had children.

susan smith should NOT have had children.

those children were indeed blessings, who were thrown away by people who should have never been parents to begin with.

why do i feel like i am banging my head against a gigantic brick wall here.