Contraception???

[Philothei]

About the discussion here... I will say this much. Marital relations, birth planning and so forth our Church has a general voice that is against the "no-reason contraception". And of course it is totally opposing elimination of life for sure. But the ultima te way it deals with pastoral issues individually are different depending on each case and each couple at a time. It is pretty much like fasting. We all get too confused about why so and so does not fast ....It is human to wonder but not so good to do as we often judge. For example some do have special economia (dispensation) for doing such... and such.. Or when we see a couple that has one child or none or 2 to assume necessarily they decided on their own not to have more without consulting their priest...

For whatever is worth these couples they might not be able to conceive

Also marital relations are not in the bottom of the list when it comes to the goals of marriage. It is one of the first along with childbearing. The physical aspect of marriage is one that needs to be fulfilled St. John Chrisostome would even go further to say that if one of the spouses cannot bear to "fast" for that long from marital relations the other spouse has to consent to allow for "dispenstation" as the temptaiton might allow for the tempted spouse to seek elsewhere to fulfill the need... So we see that we chose the best between the two evils.

End or rant....

 

[cobweb]

.

 

[Etsi]

About the discussion here... I will say this much. Marital relations, birth planning and so forth our Church has a general voice that is against the "no-reason contraception". And of course it is totally opposing elimination of life for sure. But the ultima te way it deals with pastoral issues individually are different depending on each case and each couple at a time. It is pretty much like fasting. We all get too confused about why so and so does not fast ....It is human to wonder but not so good to do as we often judge. For example some do have special economia (dispensation) for doing such... and such.. Or when we see a couple that has one child or none or 2 to assume necessarily they decided on their own not to have more without consulting their priest...

For whatever is worth these couples they might not be able to conceive

Also marital relations are not in the bottom of the list when it comes to the goals of marriage. It is one of the first along with childbearing. The physical aspect of marriage is one that needs to be fulfilled St. John Chrisostome would even go further to say that if one of the spouses cannot bear to "fast" for that long from marital relations the other spouse has to consent to allow for "dispenstation" as the temptaiton might allow for the tempted spouse to seek elsewhere to fulfill the need... So we see that we chose the best between the two evils.

End or rant....

Very well put.

 

[Photini]

As hard as I try, I just cannot see the issue of birth control as a black and white subject. Especially now.

I'm also kind of marveling at how long this thread has been alive.

 

[Philothei]

ehehe....me too Photini...This thread is indeed a survivor..But i think it is good to shed some light for any newcomer to realize we indeed are not a "black or white" on most moral issues heavily politicized.... in our times.

 

[MariaRegina]

im sure this wont go over well, but St. Clement of Alexandria says that for Christians, once a couple has had its share of children they live as brother and sister ...

Can you give a direct quote and a link?

 

[jckstraw72]

well of course people like sex, but does God allow sex just so people can enjoy themselves?! Thats not a reason for sex that I've ever heard of from any kind of Christian point of view. As I understand it from my reading and speaking with priests I respect marriage is for the salvation of the couple and procreation first and foremost. We began to have sex because we began to die and we needed a way to continue the race. Sex isnt just for someone to get their jollies or whatever.

 

[Protoevangel]

well of course people like sex, but does God allow sex just so people can enjoy themselves?! Thats not a reason for sex that I've ever heard of from any kind of Christian point of view. As I understand it from my reading and speaking with priests I respect marriage is for the salvation of the couple and procreation first and foremost. We began to have sex because we began to die and we needed a way to continue the race. Sex isnt just for someone to get their jollies or whatever.

Jack, no one has suggested that.

 

[Etsi]

well of course people like sex, but does God allow sex just so people can enjoy themselves?! Thats not a reason for sex that I've ever heard of from any kind of Christian point of view. As I understand it from my reading and speaking with priests I respect marriage is for the salvation of the couple and procreation first and foremost. We began to have sex because we began to die and we needed a way to continue the race. Sex isnt just for someone to get their jollies or whatever.

Sex was created to be a beautiful and enjoyable expression between a married couple. There is no evidence that Adam and Eve did not have sex before the fall. To say either way would be pure speculation. What would you say to a couple that cannot have children? Should they not have sex as there is no point if sex if merely for procreation? Should we only have sex during fertile times of the month? Sex goes beyond mere procreation.

 

[Kristos]

I've been reading a lot of Schmemenn lately, so my comments will be narrow, but he seems to agree with jckstaw. Sexual "liberation" only makes us "slaves" to sex. If you were to express love in it's purest form would there be a sexual act involved? I'm guessing not, because we don't think of God's love to be sexual in nature, yet we assume that expression of love between creatures made in His image does? When David says that he was conceived in sin, does that just mean in this fallen world or does that mean that in the fallen world it may be impossible to separate lust from love and thus from sex. If one thinks as some that sex is part of paradise, then I can understand, but in the Kingdom they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. Sex is not a gift, as some would have us believe. At best it's an allowance.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Deleted.

 

[Etsi]

Meh...kind of a moot point there. Since it's possible to get pregnant anytime during the month.

Not true. Granted each woman ovulates differently, but women are not fertile the entire month.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Deleted.

 

[Etsi]

Sperm live a long time.

Within a certain environment. Most of the month a woman's body is a very hostile atmosphere to sperm and MOST do not survive.

 

[Photini]

Sperm live a long time.

If you went and posted this on the Pregnancy and Parenting board (not a CF board) where I spend some time, you would get laughed off of there. Sperm can live in the female body 7 days maximum and that's only in optimal conditions. The egg lives only 12-24 hours after ovulation.

 

[Protoevangel]

Meh...kind of a moot point there. Since it's possible to get pregnant anytime during the month.

Sperm live a long time.

Within a certain environment. Most of the month a woman's body is a very hostile atmosphere to sperm and MOST do not survive.

If you went and posted this on the Pregnancy and Parenting board (not a CF board) where I spend some time, you would get laughed off of there. Sperm can live in the female body 7 days maximum and that's only in optimal conditions. The egg lives only 12-24 hours after ovulation.

Come on, don't bother him with reality now.

 

[jckstraw72]

Jack, no one has suggested that.

i was responding to this:

Commando0182: Completely unrealistic, and not because we live in modern times either, but because some people actually like sex.

 

[jckstraw72]

Can you give a direct quote and a link?

off the top of my head im not sure where its at. i will have to try to remember to check my notes.

 

[choirfiend]

Sperm live a long time.

Wow, for all your opinions on conception, you would think you'd have a clue about the physiological aspect!

What Philothei said was scientifically accurate. Most women have 9 days or less in a cycle that they could conceive.

Since I conceived (~40 days to go!!!) I get to speak as an expert

 

[jckstraw72]

Sex was created to be a beautiful and enjoyable expression between a married couple. There is no evidence that Adam and Eve did not have sex before the fall. To say either way would be pure speculation. What would you say to a couple that cannot have children? Should they not have sex as there is no point if sex if merely for procreation? Should we only have sex during fertile times of the month? Sex goes beyond mere procreation.

as far as i can tell, its a universal teaching of the Fathers that Adam and Eve definitely did not have sex before the Fall. Even St. John Chrysostom, who, from what I have been told, speaks uncharacteristically high of marriage amongst the Church Fathers, agrees on this point. The Fathers are pretty clearly not nearly as thrilled about marriage as some people would like, and from what I have read, when they do speak about marriage and marital relations they tend to speak just about procreation and avoidance of sin. There is no talk of sex being a beautiful gift that I have seen. And this isnt just because the Fathers were mainly monastics -- St. Gregory of Nyssa, and Tertullian (I realize he's not a Saint) were married but still take this attitude towards marriage. I have been blessed to attend daily services for over two months now, and have been involved in reading some of the Canons, and this point has come up a couple of times there too. Kristos is correct when he points out that there is no marriage or marital relations in Heaven. So if in perfection men do not have such relations, then why would they have such relations in the Garden when we know they were created in a state of sinlessness, in communion with God? The Fathers teach us that man knew no such bodily desires or needs before sin -- their passion was aimed solely at God. Life is about communion with God, and as Kristos said, sex is an allowance. St. Paul teaches that it is better to be a virgin as he was, but that we should be married if we can't avoid fornication -- this is not some exalted praise of marriage that many put forth -- he is essentially saying that marriage is a safety net for if you fall from the high-wire ideal of virginity. God, knowing our weakness, has given marriage as a way to keep people from fornication, in large part (I got the high-wire and safety net analogy from a married seminarian friend of mine). Christ Himself also teaches that it is actually better to be a virgin. When He teaches that divorce and remarriage is adultery the Apostles say that perhaps it is better to not even get married then, and Christ responds (paraphrasing) "Yes, but not many people can accept that, but if you can accept it, then accept it." He then talks about how some are eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom. However, as several Fathers say, this recognition of the proper state of marriage and the greater honor due to virginity is not a condemnation of marriage, since it is a sacrament and blessed by the Church -- its just not what many people think it is.