Contraception???

[Protoevangel]

i was responding to this:

Oops, sorry Jack.

I hadn't even acknowledged his post.

 

[jckstraw72]

not a problem at all!

 

[127.0.0.1]

Deleted.

 

[Michael G]

As I understand it from my reading and speaking with priests I respect marriage is for the salvation of the couple and procreation first and foremost.

No. If I had known you thought this way I would have had you talk to Fr. Patrick this summer when we met. Fr. Patrick has made it clear that the unitive element of sexual relations between married persons is very, very important from a Christian point of view. Suggesting that sex is first and foremost for procreation and that the unitive element is somehow secondary is simply false and almost strikes me as being semi-gnostic.

 

[Julina]

No. If I had known you thought this way I would have had you talk to Fr. Patrick this summer when we met. Fr. Patrick has made it clear that the unitive element of sexual relations between married persons is very, very important from a Christian point of view. Suggesting that sex is first and foremost for procreation and that the unitive element is somehow secondary is simply false and almost strikes me as being semi-gnostic.

that makes a lot of sense actually. i feel like saying a that couple wouldn't be good at parenting if they weren't... unified.

 

[jckstraw72]

i think it was Maria Regina who asked for the St. Clement quote:

Therefore, regarding life in this world as necessary for the increase of science (ἐπιστήμ&#951 and the acquisition of knowledge (γνῶσι&#962, he will value highest, not living, but living well. He will therefore prefer neither children, nor marriage, nor parents, to love for God, and righteousness in life. To such an one, his wife, after conception, is as a sister, and is judged as if of the same father; then only recollecting her husband, when she looks on the children; as being destined to become a sister in reality after putting off the flesh, which separates and limits the knowledge of those who are spiritual by the peculiar characteristics of the sexes. Stromata 6.12

ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[jckstraw72]

im not just making this stuff up though, im going off of what I have read about marriage and about man before the Fall. I'm not going to pretend that I have read everything or anywhere near everything there is to read on this subject, but when everything I have read all seems to point to the same ideas, it tends to look like the mind of the Church to me.

commenting on a passage in one of Paul's epistles where he quotes the statement that a man leaves his parents and clings to his wife (again, Ill have to check my notes later and find the passage for you all), St. John Chrysostom specifically says that this does not mean the two are united into one flesh, but rather that the two come together and make one flesh, ie a child. however, he does continue to say that even if no children result there is still a union between the spouses through marriage. Of course marriage binds two together, but sex entered into the picture because we now die, and we need a way to continue the race, and because we need a blessed outlet for our sexuality, lest we fall into fornication.

 

[Photini]

i think it was Maria Regina who asked for the St. Clement quote:

Therefore, regarding life in this world as necessary for the increase of science (ἐπιστήμ&#951 and the acquisition of knowledge (γνῶσι&#962, he will value highest, not living, but living well. He will therefore prefer neither children, nor marriage, nor parents, to love for God, and righteousness in life. To such an one, his wife, after conception, is as a sister, and is judged as if of the same father; then only recollecting her husband, when she looks on the children; as being destined to become a sister in reality after putting off the flesh, which separates and limits the knowledge of those who are spiritual by the peculiar characteristics of the sexes. Stromata 6.12

ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

I'm totally not that spiritual. Nowhere even near it. LOL

 

[Kristos]

im not just making this stuff up though, im going off of what I have read about marriage and about man before the Fall. I'm not going to pretend that I have read everything or anywhere near everything there is to read on this subject, but when everything I have read all seems to point to the same ideas, it tends to look like the mind of the Church to me.

commenting on a passage in one of Paul's epistles where he quotes the statement that a man leaves his parents and clings to his wife (again, Ill have to check my notes later and find the passage for you all), St. John Chrysostom specifically says that this does not mean the two are united into one flesh, but rather that the two come together and make one flesh, ie a child. however, he does continue to say that even if no children result there is still a union between the spouses through marriage. Of course marriage binds two together, but sex entered into the picture because we now die, and we need a way to continue the race, and because we need a blessed outlet for our sexuality, lest we fall into fornication.

I'm in the same boat. My study of the ECFs is minuscule at best, but I have never come across anything resembling the view that sex is a gift or beautiful. I would be interested to review some sources of this view.

I wonder if you polled 100 couples who had been married for 50 year or more, how many would say that the number one thing that kept them together all those years was sex? Have you ever seen a gravestone that said - he/she was great in bed?

Sex is part of our fallen world without a doubt. Because it is condemned outside of marriage does not logically imply that it is sanctified within marriage. Allowed, of course. Encouraged even to a degree due to our weakness.

Orthodox spouses are called to serve and love one another with the kind of self-sacrificial love that Christ personifies on the Cross. A calling that to many, including myself, seems unattainable. Let's not substitute sex for that which we should aspire.

 

[jckstraw72]

I'm totally not that spiritual. Nowhere even near it. LOL

hey join the club. im certainly nowhere near such a standard.

 

[jckstraw72]

heres the St. John Chrysostom passage i was referring to earlier:

Therefore to wit He said with accuracy of expression, not “they shall be one flesh” but joined together “into one flesh” (Gen. ii. 2, Sept.), namely, that of the child. What then? when there is no child, will they not be two? Nay, for their coming together hath this effect, it diffuses and commingles the bodies of both. And as one who hath cast ointment into oil, hath made the whole one; so in truth is it also here.

from his 12th homily on Colossians. NPNF1-13. Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, and Philemon | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[127.0.0.1]

Deleted.

 

[Protoevangel]

^^^Gives you linky linky >>>> http://www.christianforums.com/t7387939/

That's worse than useless.

 

[MariaRegina]

Originally Posted by MariaRegina

Trust in God and do good. There is no reason to take an abortifacient pill or be spayed/neutered like an animal. We are humans with an immortal soul.
​

There are reasons (snip). A woman who has had nearly a dozen children, is exhausted, and fears being with her husband because she fears another pregnancy. We asked our priest about this, because we have been faced with this situation ourselves, but did not want to go against Church teaching. He said that the church is not against it altogether. It seemed that intent and circumstance factor in as well.

If a married woman needs to go on an abortifacient birth control pill to regulate her cycle, then most priests recommend that she abstain during the fertile phase to avoid conceiving.

According to studies, birth control pills work in three ways: (1) suppressing ovulation; (2) making the womb toxic to newly conceived life in case ovulation occurs; and (3) bringing on menses, in which case the newly conceived life may not survive.

There have been some cases where women have conceived and brought to term a healthy baby in spite of the triple action of birth control pills, but sadly, many other babies have been born with birth defects since the pill can cause a folic acid deficiency, etc. In one case, where a woman used an IUD, which also causes miscarriages, a child was born with the IUD embedded inside him.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Deleted.

 

[Etsi]

Usually it fails in men if they have sex too soon after the surgery. There are also women that get their plumbing broken (sorry, I believe "fixed" is a very wrong term as there is nothing wrong with them in the first place).

 

[127.0.0.1]

Deleted.

 

[Etsi]

Originally Posted by MariaRegina

Trust in God and do good. There is no reason to take an abortifacient pill or be spayed/neutered like an animal. We are humans with an immortal soul.
​

If a married woman needs to go on an abortifacient birth control pill to regulate her cycle, then most priests recommend that she abstain during the fertile phase to avoid conceiving.

I put (snip) in there to specify what I was referring to. I'm extremely against hormonal birth control and IUD's. In fact, I find it insulting that anyone would believe that I think these things are acceptable (but I understand the presumption as many others do find them acceptable). If a family must avoid, then I'm for barrier, FAM, and if necessary getting snipped.

 

[cobweb]

For now we are using natural methods (FAM). Some studies show that I have as much as a 60% chance of having another kid on the spectrum (if it is a boy). I am sorry, but if the methods we are using fail and I have another child like my oldest I will without hesitation be happily mutilated/spayed like an animal. Until people start volunteering to give me respite care for the next 60 years or so I really don't care if they think that makes me a bad person.

I have already discussed this with my SF and he has given me a blessing for permanent sterilization if I choose to do so.

My oldest may never live independantly. His Aspergers isn't exactly mild. At 10 1/2 I still have to dress him every morning. He can't tie his shoes. I can't let him play in our fenced backyard by himself. If I don't hold his hand when we are shopping he wanders off. He can't tell time and he usually doesn't even know what day it is.

He goes into meltdowns that can be violent. He bites, scratches, kicks. No one can calm him down when he does this except for me (which means I can't leave him with anyone other than my husband or his teacher who is trained in restraint holds... ever).

Imagine dealing with this when he is a full grown man. Now tell me you are certain that you could handle more.

 

[Etsi]

For now we are using natural methods (FAM). Some studies show that I have as much as a 60% chance of having another kid on the spectrum (if it is a boy). I am sorry, but if the methods we are using fail and I have another child like my oldest I will without hesitation be happily mutilated/spayed like an animal. Until people start volunteering to give me respite care for the next 60 years or so I really don't care if they think that makes me a bad person.

I have already discussed this with my SF and he has given me a blessing for permanent sterilization if I choose to do so.

My oldest may never live independantly. His Aspergers isn't exactly mild. At 10 1/2 I still have to dress him every morning. He can't tie his shoes. I can't let him play in our fenced backyard by himself. If I don't hold his hand when we are shopping he wanders off. He can't tell time and he usually doesn't even know what day it is.

He goes into meltdowns that can be violent. He bites, scratches, kicks. No one can calm him down when he does this except for me (which means I can't leave him with anyone other than my husband or his teacher who is trained in restraint holds... ever).

Imagine dealing with this when he is a full grown man. Now tell me you are certain that you could handle more.

We were also using FAM (which I have used successfully in the past to both conceive and avoid) as well as barrier and I still became pregnant with this babe. Though I will still be happy to hold this child when he/she arrives, I'm done. I have another 15yrs of fertility given family history and I tend to have a child every other year. We also spoke with our Spiritual Father as we have always held very strong views in this area. So we may be opting for my getting snipped after this child.