Contraception

[EnemyPartyII]

I see that the very same argument rages on - with the exact same issues being raised. People of the Catholic faith trying to shame people who use any form of birth-control, even though Catholics do as well.

My wife & I are in our mid-40s. We have two grown sons and a daughter who is almost grown. Our "quiver is full". Additionally, people our age, who conceive, are FAR more likely to have children with birth defects. So we decided to take permanent measure to not have more children. Out of love and respect for my wife, I got a vasectomy.

Several months ago, on this board, I was called all kinds of names by a couple Catholic ladies, and told that my wife and I are engaging in "Marital Sodomy" - a term so ridiculous I'm amazed anyone could use it with a straight face!

- We are not sinning by choosing to have no more children.
- We are not sinning by taking measures to prevent pregnancy - any more than a Catholic couple is sinning by using the "sympto-thermal method" (which my wife & I have used). The end result is the same.


The bottom line is that there are FAR more important things for Christians to debate than contraception. We're not talking about abortion here - that being, the killing of an unborn child. We're talking about contraception - that being, the avoidance of pregnancy.

Hey PJ, thanks for sharing that piece of personal history with us.

I'm Catholic myself, and can seriously see no reason why God would have a problem with contraception... or at least, if he does, he'd have to consider it the lesser of two evils between contraception and overpopulation.

I'm going to go out on a linb here and say that Benadicta and those like him (her?) say things with the best of intentions, but do so with little regard to the reality of the world.

I think it is very responsible that you and your wife have decided not to have any more children, and that you take steps to prevent it.

Contraceptives a re a tool for humans to improve their lives, no more morally right or wrong than a hammer or screwdriver.

 

[MezzaMorta]

I much rather have a women use the birth control pill than get unexpectantly preagnent and end up having to go have an abortion. People are going to have sex outside of marriage, it aways has occurred and aways will. Using protection is far less of a wrong then destroying an innocent life.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I much rather have a women use the birth control pill than get unexpectantly preagnent and end up having to go have an abortion. People are going to have sex outside of marriage, it aways has occurred and aways will. Using protection is far less of a wrong then destroying an innocent life.

I'd agree with this too... ounce of prevention better than a pound of cure...

 

[Fireinfolding]

I much rather have a women use the birth control pill than get unexpectantly preagnent and end up having to go have an abortion. People are going to have sex outside of marriage, it aways has occurred and aways will. Using protection is far less of a wrong then destroying an innocent life.

Amen Great point!

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[IamAdopted]

But what is the justification for this opinion? Why do you think this is morally acceptable?

Why do you think and believe it is morally accepted to withhold sex from each other during the times of woman being fertile so that you do not conceive? You also alter the pregnancy doing this and add more onto it if your husband desires sex during this time by not making yourself available for him. We are not to not make ourselves abvailable to our mates just because we are in fertilization mode. Scripture tells us that we are to only obstain from this for prayer... Not so we don't get pregnant. So please explain why it is okay for you do to this but you bring condemnation on those who use contraception and still make their selves available to their mates? We see in scripture this is not what we are suppost to do. We see no where in scripture where it says we cannot use contraceptives.

 

[Benedicta00]

Well, may I ask you some personal questions first?

How old are you? How many intimate partners have you had? How many children have you had, and what is your current socio-economic status?

I am almost 40, I have 6 kids, one husband and had one partner all my life (my husband). We are middle class I guess you could say and we have struggled with money on and off over the years.

Does this answer your question? And what does this have to do with my question? What makes my question so difficult? It's simple, if you believe in ABC, why? What is the justification for it and is it moral, if so why?

 

[Benedicta00]

I see that the very same argument rages on - with the exact same issues being raised. People of the Catholic faith trying to shame people who use any form of birth-control, even though Catholics do as well.

My wife & I are in our mid-40s. We have two grown sons and a daughter who is almost grown. Our "quiver is full". Additionally, people our age, who conceive, are FAR more likely to have children with birth defects. So we decided to take permanent measure to not have more children. Out of love and respect for my wife, I got a vasectomy.

Several months ago, on this board, I was called all kinds of names by a couple Catholic ladies, and told that my wife and I are engaging in "Marital Sodomy" - a term so ridiculous I'm amazed anyone could use it with a straight face!

- We are not sinning by choosing to have no more children.
- We are not sinning by taking measures to prevent pregnancy - any more than a Catholic couple is sinning by using the "sympto-thermal method" (which my wife & I have used). The end result is the same.


The bottom line is that there are FAR more important things for Christians to debate than contraception. We're not talking about abortion here - that being, the killing of an unborn child. We're talking about contraception - that being, the avoidance of pregnancy.

My question to you and others who share this view is what is the justification for just not using nature and the way God made the body to prevent pregnancy from occurring?

Why do you feel it is morally acceptable to invent chemicals and other things to change the way God made the woman's body to work?

This is all I am asking, a answer, any answer would be nice. What is the justification for using artificial means of B/C?

 

[Benedicta00]

I much rather have a women use the birth control pill than get unexpectantly preagnent and end up having to go have an abortion. People are going to have sex outside of marriage, it aways has occurred and aways will. Using protection is far less of a wrong then destroying an innocent life.

oh lord have mercy.

 

[IamAdopted]

My question to you and others who share this view is what is the justification for just not using nature and the way God made the body to prevent pregnancy from occurring?

Why do you feel it is morally acceptable to invent chemicals and other things to change the way God made the woman's body to work?

This is all I am asking, a answer, any answer would be nice. What is the justification for using artificial means of B/C?

well we for one can't have any more children. I have just had a Hystorectomy and my Husband had a vasectomy about 14 years ago.. But to obstain from sex for contraception is not mentioned either. Where do you justify this? Human logic is all this is. It is okay if you do it our way but sin if you do not and do it another.. Why is that? More shame to put upon people but yet yourselves use a contraceptive action and it is okay. Kind of like screaming at your children not to scream because you are the adult and that is okay.. I don't think so. You use contraception also and flame others because they enjoy the sexual gift and duty that a man and wife have to each other.. Whether natural or chemical it is still contraception. No way else around it.

 

[Benedicta00]

Why do you think and believe it is morally accepted to withhold sex from each other during the times of woman being fertile so that you do not conceive? You also alter the pregnancy doing this and add more onto it if your husband desires sex during this time by not making yourself available for him. We are not to not make ourselves abvailable to our mates just because we are in fertilization mode. Scripture tells us that we are to only obstain from this for prayer... Not so we don't get pregnant. So please explain why it is okay for you do to this but you bring condemnation on those who use contraception and still make their selves available to their mates? We see in scripture this is not what we are suppost to do. We see no where in scripture where it says we cannot use contraceptives.

because this is how God designed the whole thing to be when he designed the male and female body along with the sex act itself.

It's a fact, sex = babies but not all the time... why not all the time?

It's obvious to me, God intended for us to abstain from one another if we can not have kids due to the stress the fallen world puts on us if we had them, not because they are a curse or because fertility itself is a burden.

With Artificial means as a way of B/C, it is saying that God really did not know what he was doing when he made babies as the direct result of sex. if God really wanted us to have sex freely anytime any place with out the gift of children, then why is sex the way we conceive children?

I must admit, I'm surprised that professed Christians of the Catholic faith are saying sex outside of marriage anytime, any place with fertility removed from it is moral. That is not what the Church teaches. It is certainly not what any mainstream Christian sect teaches either. So this begs the question, just where are we to get our morals from?

Anyway, i know i will never get answers to any of my questions, they are merely presented to be thought provoking. To get you to think about stuff.

 

[Benedicta00]

well we for one can't have any more children. I have just had a Hystorectomy and my Husband had a vasectomy about 14 years ago.. But to obstain from sex for contraception is not mentioned either. Where do you justify this? Human logic is all this is. It is okay if you do it our way but sin if you do not and do it another.. Why is that? More shame to put upon people but yet yourselves use a contraceptive action and it is okay. Kind of like screaming at your children not to scream because you are the adult and that is okay.. I don't think so. You use contraception also and flame others because they enjoy the sexual gift and duty that a man and wife have to each other.. Whether natural or chemical it is still contraception. No way else around it.

I justify it based on the way the human body is made. females can not conceive all the time, God must have made it that way for a reason, don't you think?

 

[IamAdopted]

I justify it based on the way the human body is made. females can not conceive all the time, God must have made it that way for a reason, don't you think?

It is still contraception is it not?

 

[Fireinfolding]

My question to you and others who share this view is what is the justification for just not using nature and the way God made the body to prevent pregnancy from occurring?

Why do you feel it is morally acceptable to invent chemicals and other things to change the way God made the woman's body to work?

This is all I am asking, a answer, any answer would be nice. What is the justification for using artificial means of B/C?

That dont hold any water across the board.

I refuse my own percribed medication that aids in saving my own life (or extending it). Now I heard that others might view that as suicide. You cannot win. Though you (it would appear) then would agree that such refusal was morally right? Is that correct? Given you mention these "artificial means" correct?

On this particular issue (medication) for "preventative birth" is being discussed. On the otherhand (my refusal of medication) is utillized moreso as a preventative to living on.

Its my choice either way as they are man made measures to prevent "something" either death or life in the flesh.

Whats your breif thought on refusing lifesaving meds?

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[NHB_MMA]

Not using contraception does not mean you will have a large family. I know people who only had 6, 4, 2 and 0 kids, despite not using contraception. A lot of it has to do with the natural fertility and age of the couple. In the end it is God who opens and closes the womb when we allow Him, and He always knows what is best for us, even though we may not understand or agree.

Contraception is not 100% full-proof by any means and, if God wills it, those using it will not be childless.

 

[TheDivaAngel]

Bene...how many kids do you have?

 

[MooCar93]

Sorry to come into this thread so late, but something just occurred to me re: Benedicta's repeated iteration of God making women's bodies to be fertile at times and infertile at times, but disease being a result of the Fall.

In the OT (the Law, as well as the Prophets), God refers to a woman's monthly period as "unclean." Now, why would God, before the Fall occurred, design woman so that one week of every month she was unclean and impure in his sight? Is it possible that menstruation is something that happened to our bodies after the Fall?

For the record, I'm not really sure where I'm going with this - just wanted to throw that out there.

 

[NHB_MMA]

I might get banned if I tell you where. I'm sure there are many fine resources in the Library.

Okay, seriously:
-Onan

This was at a time when having children was of such importance that the society practiced polygamy. You're Orthodox (the faith I am closest to, theologically) so perhaps you're aware that Vladimir Zhironovsky advocated that Russia legalize polygamy, as many women are unable to find suitable husbands and the population of Russia is declining. The Russian Orthodox Church expressed strong opposition, but if children are so essential within a marriage and we're digging Scripture out from the days of Onan as almost the entire basis for the argument, how about the rest of the marital customs of those times? It was a man's duty back in those days to give his brother's widow children, but the church has long abandoned that practice. In fact, in those days, infertile men were looked down upon, as if they were inferior, but no one would be so insensitive to do so today. I just find the Onan argument weak.

I believe that common sense would tell us that we're talking about a time in which the population of the earth was very, very low compared to today and that populating it was a necessity. Today, the world clearly has no population shortage.

-Children are blessings from God, and it is a sin to reject His blessings.

Children are absolutely a blessing from God, but not everyone is cut out to be an ideal parent, or can handle a large number of children. Riches are a blessing from God (to a righteous man) but I would hardly call it sinful to only aspire for modest income.

Contraception or no contraception, if one becomes pregnant it is God's will. Just as you have known of couples that did not use contraception that did not end up with an extraordinary number of children, I have known couples that had another unplanned child and clearly understood it to be a blessing from God, and loved and treated it as so.

-The Bible states that God opens and closes the womb.

God is ultimately in control and if one is meant to conceive, she will.

Where do you draw the line? Why is it okay to have sex with no contraception on days of the cycle when pregnancy is highly unlikely? Maybe the proper thing is to have sex only during the times when pregnancy is most likely, not least likely?

 

[NHB_MMA]

No, it is human logic that justifies it, and human logic that changed what Christian and Jews always believed.

Actually, most Jews take the word nephresh (meaning "breath") so literally that they're pro-choice, believing that life begins with breathing. So most Jews don't have the same reproductive views as most Christians at all.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

My question to you and others who share this view is what is the justification for just not using nature and the way God made the body to prevent pregnancy from occurring?

Why do you feel it is morally acceptable to invent chemicals and other things to change the way God made the woman's body to work?

This is all I am asking, a answer, any answer would be nice. What is the justification for using artificial means of B/C?

It is the EXACT same answer as why YOU feel it is acceptable to use the "Sympto-Thermal Method" of contraception. Catholics use birth control ALL THE TIME, but you just aren't willing to admit it!

How do you justify that, while condemning me?

The Rhythm Method, or Sympto-Thermal Method is NO DIFFERENT than other forms of birth control. They accomplish the same result, and for the same reasons.

 

[NHB_MMA]

NFP is fool proof if you know how to use it, horomones can mess up your body and condoms put a barrier between you and your spouse..something I certainly don't want.

I'll grant you that condoms can lessen the intimacy of the act for some, but that is really a personal choice, from that perspective. You can't really be saying that the rhythm method, which is the basis for NFP, is fool-proof?

This thread wasn't even about Catholics and yet they're called out on the first page..this is sad.

That is true, but Catholics have really made a significant issue out of this and to a greater degree than the Orthodox, so that is probably how it came out that way. I'm not even eligible to convert to Catholicism because I cannot accept all of the dogma about marriage and family in their entirety.