Contraception

[Benedicta00]

God gave us the means to do many things, that we artificially enhance or alter. Why should fertility be different.

So... are you saying God made a mistake when he created the receptor cells that coccaine fit?

Fertility is not artificial and should not be enhanced or stifled by man, that is the point. What i am asking you is, if you think it can be stifled by man or enhanced by man, what is your justification? Why do you think that's okay? Is it because you dislike God's natural way or find it inconvenient?

 

[IamAdopted]

Fine, you believe you are correct on faith. How do you know you are right though? What is your confirmation? Others say they believe as a matter of faith that God really says abortion is okay too.. see how this presents a huge problem?

We are back to square one, authority and just who has it? Did God give it to all individuals or to His very own Church to teach all individuals what is morally correct and what isn't?

Now how did abortion come into play with contraception?

 

[IamAdopted]

Ya know I don't believe that your church is the Church scripture talks of. So therefore I do not hold to thier teachings.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Fertility is not artificial and should not be enhanced or stifled by man, that is the point. What i am asking you is, if you think it can be stifled by man or enhanced by man, what is your justification? Why do you think that's okay? Is it because you dislike God's natural way or find it inconvenient?

There are lots of things that we find inconvenient that we enhance...

God gave us legs to walk around on... yet we use cars.

Whats the difference between using contraceptives to alter our God given fertility, and using cars to alter our God given mobility?

Any reason we should consider them any differently?

 

[Benedicta00]

I'm refering to what sin did? How has the human form changed due to sin please?God made us incapable of providing food for ourselves without artificial aids, why do you think he made us this way?

he didn't make us this way, sin did. medicine is a cure for what sin did. It is not an improvement on how God originally made us. We lost that perfection (not getting sick), do you understand this?

Oh, there are many issues with the "design" of a human I would take issue with before female fertility cycles (although, maybe if you asked me diring PMS...) but no... I don't think it was a "mistake" in the way you intend... and in the same way that God allows a system to exist where we can enhance our health and hapiness artificially, I see no reason to believe he doesnt want us to regulate our fertility artificialy

Again, sickness and medical issues came out of the fall and are from the enemy, not God. fertility, the gift of life is not a result of the fall. it is exactly what god intended for us, so again i ask how do you justify tweaking his design of the female reproductive system?

 

[Benedicta00]

There are lots of things that we find inconvenient that we enhance...

God gave us legs to walk around on... yet we use cars.

Whats the difference between using contraceptives to alter our God given fertility, and using cars to alter our God given mobility?

Any reason we should consider them any differently?

How are you comparing a car to changing the female reproductive system?

If we were to cut off our legs in order to use a car then your comparison would have merit but since no one in their right mind would do that, it doesn't.

is this your justification?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

he didn't make us this way, sin did. medicine is a cure for what sin did. It is not an improvement on how God originally made us. We lost that perfection (not getting sick), do you understand this?

I'm not JUST talking about getting sick... Seriously... ty feeding yourself for a week with just what God gave you... you'll get pretty hungry... so if you use anything artificial to help you feed yourself, aren't you saying God made a mistake in designing you with such poor food catching ability?

Nothing about sin or getting sick mentioned.

so again i ask how do you justify tweaking his design of the female reproductive system?

The same way I justify tweaking any other human system... seriously... I bet you can't survive a DAY without some sort of artificial "tweak" to assist your "God designed" body

 

[Benedicta00]

Ya know I don't believe that your church is the Church scripture talks of. So therefore I do not hold to thier teachings.

Okay... so again I ask... how do you know you have the correct teaching on these moral issues where there is no confirmation either for it it or against it in the bible?

You pray about it? Well that's great, really... it is... but so do those who are also for abortion.

So back to square one, on who's authority do you have it that you are correct and the majority of Christians everywhere are wrong?

 

[Benedicta00]

I'm not JUST talking about getting sick... Seriously... ty feeding yourself for a week with just what God gave you... you'll get pretty hungry... so if you use anything artificial to help you feed yourself, aren't you saying God made a mistake in designing you with such poor food catching ability?

Nothing about sin or getting sick mentioned.The same way I justify tweaking any other human system... seriously... I bet you can't survive a DAY without some sort of artificial "tweak" to assist your "God designed" body

You have gotten way off track and are throwing out all kinds of false comparisons.

The bottom line question is and remains, God made a women to be fertile half the month and non fertile the other half, no?

So why is it okay to change this with chemicals and other artificial things?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

How are you comparing a car to changing the female reproductive system?

If we were to cut off our legs in order to use a car then your comparison would have merit but since no one in their right mind would do that, it doesn't.

is this your justification?

What? why? Using contraceptives doesn't "cut off" the reproductive system... it changes it to be more convenient to the owners needs...

Same as a car doesn't mean you can't walk again, its just a way of making moving around more conveniet to your needs

 

[EnemyPartyII]

You have gotten way off track and are throwing out all kinds of false comparisons.

The bottom line question is and remains, God made a women to be fertile half the month and non fertile the other half, no?

So why is it okay to change this with chemicals and other artificial things?

We change LOTS of things about the way "God made us"

God made women fertile half the month and infertile half the month...

God made humans virtually defenceless against predators

God made humans virtually incapable of feeding themselves

God made humans slow moving, without protection from the elements, so that we burn in sun, we freeze in shade

Why is it wrong to alter only ONE of these?

 

[Benedicta00]

What? why? Using contraceptives doesn't "cut off" the reproductive system... it changes it to be more convenient to the owners needs...

Same as a car doesn't mean you can't walk again, its just a way of making moving around more conveniet to your needs

God made the female to be fertile half the month and not fertile the other half. No?

Why do you think it is okay to take chemicals to change the body so it meets your needs?

this is all I am asking... what is your justification since there is no biblical permission granted.

God made woman this way and mankind has invented artificial things to make her another way... how come?

This is all i am asking, why is the way God made not good enough for us to use if we should not have a baby?

 

[Benedicta00]

We change LOTS of things about the way "God made us"

God made women fertile half the month and infertile half the month...

God made humans virtually defenceless against predators

God made humans virtually incapable of feeding themselves

God made humans slow moving, without protection from the elements, so that we burn in sun, we freeze in shade

Why is it wrong to alter only ONE of these?

you fail to see the difference in seeing fertility and the gift of it as something that does not need treatment or alteration from ilnesses that does.

based on all these comparisons you falsely present, your argument would be that you see our fertility, not as a gift but as a curse.

What do you base this on? that we humans, God's creation, need to alter fertility in any way?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

God made the female to be fertile half the month and not fertile the other half. No?

Why do you think it is okay to take chemicals to change the body so it meets your needs?

this is all I am asking... what is your justification since there is no biblical permission granted.

God made woman this way and mankind has invented artificial things to make her another way... how come?

This is all i am asking, why is the way God made not good enough for us to use if we should not have a baby?

you are being inconsistent. You are quite happy to take chemicals and use artificial aids to change the way the body operates to suit your needs...

So I'm saying... IF it is acceptible to use artificial means to change other functions of the body, why not contraception as well?

Its either/OR...

EITHER... we only use what God gave us, and try to eke out a living as a naked hairless ape with no tools or shelter

OR you accept that artificial assistance is an integral part of what humans require... and if thats the case... if it is acceptible for humans to use cars, use tools, use computers, wear cloths, and so on... why not contraception?

Its put up or shut up time... either explain to me why contraception is different to any other tool humans use to make their lives more convenient, or reconsider your position

 

[EnemyPartyII]

you fail to see the difference in seeing fertility and the gift of it as something that does not need treatment or alteration from ilnesses that does.

based on all these comparisons you falsely present, your argument would be that you see our fertility, not as a gift but as a curse.

What do you base this on? that we humans, God's creation, need to alter fertility in any way?

Could you move on from medicine please?

God made humans virtually defenceless against predators

God made humans virtually incapable of feeding themselves

God made humans slow moving, without protection from the elements, so that we burn in sun, we freeze in shade

none of these examples involves medicine, does it? so how is any of these excamples of artificial assistance different to contraception?

based on all these comparisons you falsely present, your argument would be that you see our fertility, not as a gift but as a curse.

SOMETIMES fertility is positive SOMETIMES fertility is negative...

What do you base this on? that we humans, God's creation, need to alter fertility in any way?

Because sometimes people want to have sex without having a child.

 

[Benedicta00]

you are being inconsistent. You are quite happy to take chemicals and use artificial aids to change the way the body operates to suit your needs...

So I'm saying... IF it is acceptible to use artificial means to change other functions of the body, why not contraception as well?

Its either/OR...

EITHER... we only use what God gave us, and try to eke out a living as a naked hairless ape with no tools or shelter

OR you accept that artificial assistance is an integral part of what humans require... and if thats the case... if it is acceptible for humans to use cars, use tools, use computers, wear cloths, and so on... why not contraception?

Its put up or shut up time... either explain to me why contraception is different to any other tool humans use to make their lives more convenient, or reconsider your position

No, all Im saying is being fertile is not a illness that we need to treat. it is a gift that we should embrace. You disagree and so does the rest who believes in artificial B/C.

Why? ... is all I am asking. Why is fertility treated and seen in this way?

 

[Benedicta00]

Could you move on from medicine please?

none of these examples involves medicine, does it? so how is any of these excamples of artificial assistance different to contraception?

SOMETIMES fertility is positive SOMETIMES fertility is negative...Because sometimes people want to have sex without having a child.

But what is the justification for this opinion? Why do you think this is morally acceptable?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

No, all Im saying is being fertile is not a illness that we need to treat. it is a gift that we should embrace. You disagree and so does the rest who believes in artificial B/C.

Why? ... is all I am asking. Why is fertility treated and seen in this way?

Well, may I ask you some personal questions first?

How old are you? How many intimate partners have you had? How many children have you had, and what is your current socio-economic status?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Hmmm, thought so.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

No, all Im saying is being fertile is not a illness that we need to treat. it is a gift that we should embrace. You disagree and so does the rest who believes in artificial B/C.

Why? ... is all I am asking. Why is fertility treated and seen in this way?

I see that the very same argument rages on - with the exact same issues being raised. People of the Catholic faith trying to shame people who use any form of birth-control, even though Catholics do as well.

My wife & I are in our mid-40s. We have two grown sons and a daughter who is almost grown. Our "quiver is full". Additionally, people our age, who conceive, are FAR more likely to have children with birth defects. So we decided to take permanent measure to not have more children. Out of love and respect for my wife, I got a vasectomy.

Several months ago, on this board, I was called all kinds of names by a couple Catholic ladies, and told that my wife and I are engaging in "Marital Sodomy" - a term so ridiculous I'm amazed anyone could use it with a straight face!

- We are not sinning by choosing to have no more children.
- We are not sinning by taking measures to prevent pregnancy - any more than a Catholic couple is sinning by using the "sympto-thermal method" (which my wife & I have used). The end result is the same.


The bottom line is that there are FAR more important things for Christians to debate than contraception. We're not talking about abortion here - that being, the killing of an unborn child. We're talking about contraception - that being, the avoidance of pregnancy.