Continuing research into the possibility of the reality of the Exodus, and current data/conclusions.

[AV1611VET]

Obviously not .. he got it wrong from the get-go.

According to current paradigms ... right?

And speaking of current paradigms, God says He created the moon.

And if He got that wrong from the get-go, then which of the five, six, or seven theories hypotheses in your book is the correct one?

 

[AV1611VET]

What in the world, in your past, has caused such a deep, deep cynicism and distrust of the good aspects of human nature?

The "good aspects of human nature" wouldn't tell me to recant or die.

 

[sjastro]

Let's see what a harlot has to say for once, shall we?



Kinda SOL, weren't they?

(Short On Luck)

Just like your science from time to time ... to time.



You betcha.

But He used the Red Sea to do it.

And let's see what Rahab the harlot has to say about it:

Joshua 2:8 And before they were laid down, she came up unto them upon the roof;
9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.
10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.
11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

Look what the two spies reported back to Joshua:

Joshua 2:23 So the two men returned, and descended from the mountain, and passed over, and came to Joshua the son of Nun, and told him all things that befell them:
24 And they said unto Joshua, Truly the LORD hath delivered into our hands all the land; for even all the inhabitants of the country do faint because of us.

And look what effect it had on Jericho when the Israelites showed up:

Joshua 6:1 Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in.

This super fort, which was probably built to keep invaders out, fell prey to God's "psychological warfare;" as did Ai and other cities.

Your "giant sandstorm" scenario -- (which you pointed out probably happened a thousand years later against Persia) -- is too mundane an explanation.

I'll take what Rahab said, over what your "historic mystery archaeology" site has to say about it anytime.

You surprise me as I underestimated your level of confusion.
Apparently you are so confused as to not understand Joshua occurred at a different time and location to Exodus; it starts with Joshua’s campaigns in Canaan after the Israelites left the Sinai desert and therefore your Joshua quotes have no bearing on the events which occurred in Exodus.
Even the reference to the Red Sea in Joshua doesn’t hold water pardon the pun, it wasn’t dried up but temporarily parted to produce dry land as Mr. Pharaoh and his merry men learnt the hard way.

This brings up another problem in Exodus, if Moses is the author of Exodus and negotiated with the pharaoh directly to free the enslaved Israelites, why isn’t his identity revealed in Exodus?

 

[SelfSim]

The "good aspects of human nature" wouldn't tell me to recant or die.

Why do you fear dying?

Do you think you're really all that special?

 

[Neogaia777]

I have several thoughts.

First off, the stories of the Jesus miracles were first passed on by word of mouth. And those stores, in the storyteller’s desire to glorify Jesus added a bit to the supposed event. That’s a natural human thing to do.

Next, reported miracles are recorded by others of other spiritual trajectories. Miracles are not restricted/limited to Jesus alone. Check out the lives of other mystics, even Christian mystics to explore this avenue. With that knowledge, I don’t fully disregard the miracles attributed to Jesus but I do place them as interesting.

Lastly, in my opinion, miracles are nothing to hang a hat on. The reason being when focused on they can get into the way of other stuff, like one’s spiritual union with the Divine. For Christians that would be through Jesus. And that’s where the path of Love comes into play. That personal transformation through the journey of Love is the only miracle that has real meaning for a person. It's how God is made a reality in one's life.

My guess is that I’ve added some unfamiliar concepts?

While that can happen sometimes, I don't think that's the most likely possibility with all of them right now currently. There are just too many of them. And the copies that we have are from eyewitness accounts mostly that aren't that far off from being when they actually happened right now currently, unlike some of the OT that we have right now currently.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

Once again it looks as if you are trying steer this discussion towards my beliefs and as I mentioned in a previous thread it is not up for scrutiny.
The thread is about the historicity of Exodus.

They are just some honest questions of mine, etc.

And I not at all had your own personal beliefs in mind at all when I first wrote this, etc.

God Bless.

 

[dlamberth]

Wow.

The Exodus was when? Would you agree that the 13th century BCE about right? The Pentateuch was finished some 800 years later being comprised from different sources. Lots of time for religious embellishment with even the name of God changing depending on the source.

 

[AV1611VET]

You surprise me as I underestimated your level of confusion.

Academia has that effect on some.

Apparently you are so confused as to not understand Joshua occurred at a different time and location to Exodus;

Got it.

Soooo, cause-and-effect can take a hike, can it?

Rahab's fear, generated by such a monumental miracle, can't be brought up as evidence?

... it starts with Joshua’s campaigns in Canaan after the Israelites left the Sinai desert and therefore your Joshua quotes have no bearing on the events which occurred in Exodus.

Then so can your "thousand year giant sand storm from Persia."

Even the reference to the Red Sea in Joshua doesn’t hold water pardon the pun, it wasn’t dried up but temporarily parted to produce dry land as Mr. Pharaoh and his merry men learnt the hard way.

Exodus 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

This brings up another problem in Exodus, if Moses is the author of Exodus and negotiated with the pharaoh directly to free the enslaved Israelites, why isn’t his identity revealed in Exodus?

Perhaps God blotted his name out?

It's been known to happen to others.

Exodus 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

 

[AV1611VET]

The Exodus was when?

1491 BC

Would you agree that the 13th century BCE about right?

I'll say about 1491 BC, since I use Usher's chronology for the sake of Occam's razor.

The Pentateuch was finished some 800 years later being comprised from different sources.

The Pentateuch was finished when Moses died.

After it disintegrated into dust, it is conjectured that Ezra rewrote it.

Under inspiration of the Holy Ghost, of course.

Lots of time for religious embellishment with even the name of God changing depending on the source.

God has a dynamite firewall.

Noting got into the Scriptures that didn't belong there.

 

[dlamberth]

The Pentateuch was finished when Moses died.

After it disintegrated into dust, it is conjectured that Ezra rewrote it.

Under inspiration of the Holy Ghost, of course.

Embellishment

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And how does that work out for you?

Do you end up resolving the conflict?

Or just make it worse?

I neither resolve it nor make it worse.

What I do, though, is end up following Jesus while, at the same time, appreciating half of what modern science has to offer. (Or is it 3/4 of it?)

AND, what's more, I get to feel smug about it afterward.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Indeed I shall refrain. Not that I have any disdain for failure, it's a constant companion, rather having but a 9th grade education, formal classes never have been my cup of tea.

Well then, if all you admittedly have is a 9th grade education, then let me at least congratulate you on your writing ability. Your grammar and syntax is probably better than mine. That's something.

No need to be sorry, I expect you to point out my errors, just as you'll likely understand if I disagree.

Do you really want me to explain the incongruities and conceptual asymmetry involved in comparing Samson's destruction of the Philistine temple to 9/11 ? I don't think I have to do that because.............one would have to be utterly blind and powerless to fail to understand how they're different.

 

[partinobodycular]

Do you really want me to explain the incongruities and conceptual asymmetry involved in comparing Samson's destruction of the Philistine temple to 9/11 ?

I doubt that this is the right place and time, but yes, I would absolutely love it. In fact I would be honored. You seem like a very open and honest person, so your thoughts matter to me... not that other people's don't, but insights have a bit more value when they come from someone who's truly taken the time consider them. If you can do that, then it would be foolish of me not to listen.

 

[partinobodycular]

Well then, if all you admittedly have is a 9th grade education, then let me at least congratulate you on your writing ability. Your grammar and syntax is probably better than mine. That's something.

That's just a side effect of me being SAD. Social Anxiety Disorder. My mind impulsively critiques everything that I try to say... over, and over, and over again, before it finally decides that it's good enough. On longer posts I've probably reread them dozens upon dozens of times before I finally feel comfortable enough to hit 'Post reply'. And then I'll reread them another half dozen times just to calm any lingering anxiety.

So I may sometimes be able to fool people into thinking that I'm intelligent, but it's more of a weakness than a gift... or perhaps it's both.

 

[sjastro]

Academia has that effect on some.

So academia which is the source of all evil is now responsible for your state of confusion as well.
Got it.

Got it.

Soooo, cause-and-effect can take a hike, can it?

Rahab's fear, generated by such a monumental miracle, can't be brought up as evidence?

No it cannot be brought up as evidence because it is not a historical event supported by archaeological evidence.

Then so can your "thousand year giant sand storm from Persia."

A giant sandstorm which wipes out a 50,000 strong Persian army on Egypt’s western border becomes a "thousand year giant sand storm from Persia."; I rest my case regarding your state of confusion.

Exodus 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

Another example of your state of confusion as you have highlighted the very discrepancy I brought up between the Exodus and Joshua accounts of what happened at the Red Sea.

Perhaps God blotted his name out?

It's been known to happen to others.

Exodus 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

You haven't thought this one through.
Most Christian theologies believe in the concept of original sin where everyone including the likes of Moses have sinned against God..
God should therefore blot out all references to people in the Bible as everyone has sinned against him.

Let me help on this this one, since you want to blame academia for everything, a more plausible explanation is that academics from the future invented a time machine and went back to Moses’ time to give him selective amnesia in not being able to recall the identity of the pharaoh when he authored the Exodus.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'll try to answer some of my own questions here as to why or how Jesus was able to do some of what he did with or without maybe knowing the full truth about the exodus, or other such kinds of things, etc.

He knew, or figured out, or deduced one single truth that was paramount for him maybe being able to do what he did, etc. And that was that if there was a highest God of all, one that was/always has been fully omniscient, and omnipotent, and all of that, etc, from the very beginning, etc, then it could not have been God in the OT, etc. But of course, he couldn't just come out and say this, like I can now, for some very, very obvious reasons back then, etc. But this was the truth that he ran across that might have been giving him the ability to do all of these kinds of things back then, etc.

But reasoning that there was such a most highest God as this, and claiming to be the only one living who fully knew Him, and represented Him, and could show Him, etc, he built a whole new entire teaching or theology around it. Which was that highest God as his true Father, and our Heavenly Father, and God in the OT as now God the Spirit, or the Holy Spirit now, after him, and Himself as the God-Man in that arrangement, etc. And his proof that he was correct, was his ability to do these kinds of things, or was in his having the (supernatural) power or authority to do these kinds of things, etc. And that his or this power could have come from his/our Heavenly Father God, or this Highest God, or God the Holy Spirit as his Father, etc, or maybe even a bit of both, etc.

But he was pretty much born with the ability to do these things, but didn't want it to become known publicly until his mother finally pushed him into it at the wedding in Cana of Galilee, at which point his mother thought his time was already way, way, way overdue, etc.

But, anyway, his new found theology or belief may have been the source of him being able to do these kinds of things, etc, as the power or ability to do them might have come from there, etc, regardless of what his actual belief was about all of the other things, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'll try to answer some of my own questions here as to why or how Jesus was able to do some of what he did with or without maybe knowing the full truth about the exodus, or other such kinds of things, etc.

He knew, or figured out, or deduced one single truth that was paramount for him maybe being able to do what he did, etc. And that was that if there was a highest God of all, one that was/always has been fully omniscient, and omnipotent, and all of that, etc, from the very beginning, etc, then it could not have been God in the OT, etc. But of course, he couldn't just come out and say this, like I can now, for some very, very obvious reasons back then, etc. But this was the truth that he ran across that might have been giving him the ability to do all of these kinds of things back then, etc.

But reasoning that there was such a most highest God as this, and claiming to be the only one living who fully knew Him, and represented Him, and could show Him, etc, he built a whole new entire teaching or theology around it. Which was that highest God as his true Father, and our Heavenly Father, and God in the OT as now God the Spirit, or the Holy Spirit now, after him, and Himself as the God-Man in that arrangement, etc. And his proof that he was correct, was his ability to do these kinds of things, or was in his having the (supernatural) power or authority to do these kinds of things, etc. And that his or this power could have come from his/our Heavenly Father God, or this Highest God, or God the Holy Spirit as his Father, etc, or maybe even a bit of both, etc.

But he was pretty much born with the ability to do these things, but didn't want it to become known publicly until his mother finally pushed him into it at the wedding in Cana of Galilee, at which point his mother thought his time, was already way, way, way overdue, etc.

But, anyway, his new found theology or belief may have been the source of him being able to do these kinds of things, etc, as the power or ability to do them might have come from there, etc, regardless of what his actual belief was about all of the other things, etc.

God Bless.

He also claimed to have communication with these God's, which might have been another way that he knew they existed, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

He claimed to have communication with these God's, which might have been another way that he knew they existed, etc.

God Bless.

He also might have been able to bind all the other spirit's with this new found theology, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Ophiolite]

That's just a side effect of me being SAD. Social Anxiety Disorder. My mind impulsively critiques everything that I try to say... over, and over, and over again, before it finally decides that it's good enough. On longer posts I've probably reread them dozens upon dozens of times before I finally feel comfortable enough to hit 'Post reply'. And then I'll reread them another half dozen times just to calm any lingering anxiety.

So I may sometimes be able to fool people into thinking that I'm intelligent, but it's more of a weakness than a gift... or perhaps it's both.

This is a serious question. Have you considered work as a proof reader?

 

[sjastro]

As a human interest story or rather an AI story where Copilot takes a bet each way on Exodus.

The question of whether the biblical Exodus is fact or fiction has been a topic of much debate among scholars and archaeologists. Let’s explore some of the factors both for and against its historicity:

1. Evidence in Favor of the Exodus:
   • Merneptah Stele: Dated to around 1219 B.C.E., this ancient Egyptian inscription mentions a people group called Israel. It commemorates Pharaoh Merneptah’s military victories and states, “Israel is wasted, its seed is not.” This provides extrabiblical evidence for the existence of Israel during that period1.
   • Place Names Correspondence: The biblical account mentions places like Pithom, Ramses, and the Yam Suph (Red Sea or Reed Sea). These names correspond to Egyptian place names from the Ramesside Period (13th–11th centuries B.C.E.), further supporting the Exodus narrative1.
2. Challenges to the Exodus Story:
   • Lack of Archaeological Evidence: The story of the Exodus appears only in the Hebrew Bible and Christian Old Testament, with no corroborating evidence from Egyptian history or other sources2.
   • Absence in Egyptian Records: Despite extensive records from ancient Egypt, there is no direct mention of the Exodus event or the Israelites’ enslavement and subsequent departure.
   • Historical Anomalies: Some aspects of the Exodus account, such as the parting of the Red Sea, remain unverified by archaeological findings.
   • Mythological Elements: The Exodus story contains elements that are historically credible, but it also includes miraculous events. Separating historical truth from myth can be challenging.
3. Value Despite Myth: Even if the Exodus is not a literal historical event, it holds value as a cultural and religious narrative. The story of a people escaping slavery resonates with themes of liberation, resilience, and hope3.

In summary, while evidence exists to support the Exodus, its historicity remains a matter of interpretation and ongoing research. Whether fact or fiction, the story continues to captivate and inspire.

What I find interesting is the 'Evidence in Favor of the Exodus' is not evidence in favour at all given Canaan was under Egyptian control in the time frames given.
The Exodus is based on the Israelites having migrated to Canaan and battling the Amalekites and other tribes in the region but does not record military engagements with the Egyptians whose empire extended to Canaan and beyond.