Considering making a change

[F.E.A.R.]

Forgive my ignorance, but why would Mary need to pray that if Christ already wills to save all and promised to save those who believe?

I don't know how the prayers of the Theotokos and Saints affect us, however, what I do know is that you cannot be saved just by "believing". You cannot be saved without confessing your sins to your priest, because Confession is one the sacraments (holy mysteries). Sins that we've done but have forgotten and cannot remember remain in the subconscious, this is why we must do good deeds, since the good can redeem the soul in the afterlife, because we will be judged in the state which death finds us.

I may have not communicated my previous question clearly. When you pray to the saints, is it like "pray for me that I may receive ____?" or are they all recited? In the Protestant world, I've always seen prayers addressed to God as if He's there to grant wishes.

You can do your personal prayers to the Saints. I know and that's a problem with the Protestants. Prayers are not wishes here.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I count myself blessed that I grew up a Catholic, so the Theotokos and the Communion of Saints was not a difficult issue for me. I already believed it thoroughly.

I've always told Protestants, if my mom was in the hospital, sick, possibly dying, and I asked you to pray for me, would you? "Heavens, yes!" they reply. So, we can pray for each other? We can intercede for one another? "Yes!" they say. Well, if you think about it, the saints in heaven are, as was said earlier in this thread, NOT DEAD. They are alive in Christ. And we KNOW they are with Christ in the majesty, glory, and perfection of heaven. Now think about it, while I'd be glad to pray for you, ironyUSA, wouldn't it be better to ask the Mother of God herself!? Wouldn't it be better to ask the very women who has the same blood coursing through her veins as the Son of Man!? She stands by God in heaven! She intimately knows her Son! Or take the other saints Paul, Peter, John of Shanghai, Herman of Alaska, and thousands of others. They are by Christ, in His midst. They can best intercede far better than we can.

Intercession is asking the help, the aid, the intimate loving urgent intercession of a saint, not us praying TO the saint as a type of god replacing the Holy Trinity.

The saints give God glory because every good gift that comes from the Father of Lights flows through His Church. We are His Church, and His saints are part of it. They magnify His gifts to them. St. Paul was a two-bit persecuting thug until he met Our Lord, and St. Paul always gave God glory for the transformation. So now that Paul is in the Uncreated Light of the Lord, he can pray for you. you are not minimizing God's role by asking one of His saints to help pray alongside you.

Read about the Church Militant, Church Triumphant, etc.

And of course you can pray directly to Our Lord. YOU SHOULD! When I pray before my icons, I pray directly to the Trinity, but as I progress, I ask the intercessory aid of the saints and I name them, call on them, and ask the Lord to hear their supplications.

Thank you for starting this thread. I hope the many good answers on here have helped!

I was raised in a charismatic church and, as soon as I could drive myself, I started attending Southern Baptist churches. A couple of years ago I started taking my faith much more seriously and found that I have some real problems with Protestant theology. As I read the works of the church fathers, I found an interest in Eastern Orthodoxy. I have read a bit of Vladimir Lossky and am blown away by the depth of theology here.

I have contacted the local Eastern Orthodox church about trying to attend... I am really stuck on a single point, however. I understand that Eastern Orthodoxy really views prayer differently than Protestants, but I sincerely don't understand praying to Mary or the saints. Is this really necessary or can someone become Eastern Orthodoxy without embracing this practice?

 

[Brighid]

Here's part 2 of the video I mentioned earlier, about what is meant by "Holy Theotokos" save us.

 

[ironyUSA]

Dumb question... I think it slipped my mind that the protestant understanding of "salvation" really isn't the same as it is in Orthodoxy. In the Akathist video linked, the comment said "through the intercession of the Theotokos, Savior, save us." I wouldn't even know where to start with that in the protestant mind. In the protestant view, Jesus hears our prayer and God knows our heart. I don't understand why invocation of intercession is necessary. I think this is a hard pill to swallow because the telos of protestant theology is salvation, whereas theosis is functionally different. In order to clarify, what is the Theotokos saving a person from?

 

[Brighid]

Dumb question... I think it slipped my mind that the protestant understanding of "salvation" really isn't the same as it is in Orthodoxy. In the Akathist video linked, the comment said "through the intercession of the Theotokos, Savior, save us." I wouldn't even know where to start with that in the protestant mind. In the protestant view, Jesus hears our prayer and God knows our heart. I don't understand why invocation of intercession is necessary. I think this is a hard pill to swallow because the telos of protestant theology is salvation, whereas theosis is functionally different. In order to clarify, what is the Theotokos saving a person from?

I would say the "saving" is from spiritual delusion and death, but I'm sure someone more qualified can clarify.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

Dumb question... I think it slipped my mind that the protestant understanding of "salvation" really isn't the same as it is in Orthodoxy. In the Akathist video linked, the comment said "through the intercession of the Theotokos, Savior, save us." I wouldn't even know where to start with that in the protestant mind. In the protestant view, Jesus hears our prayer and God knows our heart. I don't understand why invocation of intercession is necessary. I think this is a hard pill to swallow because the telos of protestant theology is salvation, whereas theosis is functionally different. In order to clarify, what is the Theotokos saving a person from?

So, remember how I said the Theotokos = a type of Church, and all those other prayers said how she gives us the life giving bread, etc? I think that's the same concept. Theotokos can save us because she gave/gives us Christ. Where else would you receive the Bread of Life? Know what I mean? The Incarnation is a very important aspect of Christology which is often times glossed over in low-church Protestantism. You should get St. Athanasius "On the Incarnation" to get a better idea, then you'll see how connected they are.

 

[ironyUSA]

I actually have that book on my shelf. I found the analogy at the end of this quite helpful: http://www.allsaints-stl.org/Most Holy Theotokos Save Us.pdf

Let me see if I can repeat this back in a coherent way; Mary represents the church so Mary's intercession is kind of a proxy to intercession from the totality of the church (militant and triumphant)? So, in a way it's grounding people within the church? Perhaps it doesn't have quite that strong of ecclesiastical implications, but it appears it does based on your post.

Brighid, I am reading through "Orthodox Psychotherapy" right now. The nous, it seems, is the battlefield of the individual Christian. From what I can gather, she isn't saving individuals (F.E.A.R. corrected that on post #30) rather she represents the individual's place within the church.

I'm still struggling through this... crazy how the words have such different meaning based on the grand narrative.

edit: Thinking on this a little more, "how does the individual relate to the church?" is probably a problem for most protestants. As best I can tell, the protestant (church) identities seem to emerge because the church is never represented in unanimity and no subversion of individual identity is implicit. Why is it that in Psalm 45, the queen cannot be the church triumphant and the daughter isn't the church militant? Additionally, it seems that a proxy of Mary's fiat is what we're actually seeking.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Dumb question... I think it slipped my mind that the protestant understanding of "salvation" really isn't the same as it is in Orthodoxy. In the Akathist video linked, the comment said "through the intercession of the Theotokos, Savior, save us." I wouldn't even know where to start with that in the protestant mind. In the protestant view, Jesus hears our prayer and God knows our heart. I don't understand why invocation of intercession is necessary. I think this is a hard pill to swallow because the telos of protestant theology is salvation, whereas theosis is functionally different. In order to clarify, what is the Theotokos saving a person from?

no one. it's Christ saving us through or by her prayers. much like how St Paul says I have become all things to all men so that I might save some.

we ask her prayers for the same reason we ask each other for prayers.

 

[prodromos]

Something you will start to realise is there is a deep humility in everything we do and say in the Church. If "the prayers of a righteous man are powerful and effective", it follows that the payers of an unrighteous man are somewhat less so. We pray to God because we love God, but we are also deeply aware of our sinfulness and unworthiness, so we covet the prayers of those whom God has revealed to be righteous men and women.
Through the prayers of our holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy on us and save us. Amen

 

[ironyUSA]

I plan to attend a zoom meeting this evening with the local church. It's a catechism series for people interested in learning more about Orthodoxy.

 

[ArmyMatt]

awesome, may it be blessed!

 

[Brighid]

I plan to attend a zoom meeting this evening with the local church. It's a catechism series for people interested in learning more about Orthodoxy.

Great! I hope you'll let us know what how it goes!

 

[ironyUSA]

Will do. If I am being vulnerable... I don't feel a part of the Southern Baptist church I currently attend. Every Sunday, I see individuals divided in their understanding of God, never pushing beyond the casual superficiality. The disconnectedness to each other (the church militant) and irreverence for orthodox belief (the church triumphant) is hard to bear. This forum really helped me understand the necessity of rooting oneself within the cloud of witnesses beyond the local congregation. I am probably not articulating it correctly, but Protestant doctrine seems to inevitably lead to disunity. I fear this journey will make some relationships difficult.

 

[Brighid]

Will do. If I am being vulnerable... I don't feel a part of the Southern Baptist church I currently attend. Every Sunday, I see individuals divided in their understanding of God, never pushing beyond the casual superficiality. The disconnectedness to each other (the church militant) and irreverence for orthodox belief (the church triumphant) is hard to bear. This forum really helped me understand the necessity of rooting oneself within the cloud of witnesses beyond the local congregation. I am probably not articulating it correctly, but Protestantism doctrine seems to inevitably lead to disunity. I fear this journey will make some relationships difficult.

I came out of a Southern Baptist church, in a very small town and I had the same experience and concerns. I have found that for the most part, those I had a true connection with and those who had a true desire for God, have been very understanding of my move to Orthodoxy, even if they are somewhat confused. Those who don't "get it" are those who didn't seem to "get" Christianity already in the Baptist church. I've gained a lot more than I lost. God Bless!

 

[ArmyMatt]

I fear this journey will make some relationships difficult.

it might, but it's worth it.

 

[ironyUSA]

I have a follow-up meeting with the priest today. Oddly, given the appropriate context - I understand the significance of the practices within the statement "there is no theology outside the church." May seem odd, but it makes sense to me.

 

[ArmyMatt]

hope it goes well!

 

[ironyUSA]

Looking back at this thread - the journey isn't complete. I am actually going to start the catechism classes in the summer with no commitment to join the church afterwards, but the local priest has opened this to me.

 

[ArmyMatt]

prayers on this leg of the journey!

 

[Dorothea]

I came back, so to speak, to Orthodoxy (was baptized at one years old but didn't grow up really going to church) in 1996/1997. It wasn't until 2008 when I was needing a lot of prayers for my son who had a brain tumor since 13 months old, because the doctor we'd seen at the time said the MRI showed my son's tumor had grown a bit, along with the cyst attached to it, and the doctor was considering chemotherapy, that I considered asking the Saints. I dreaded this news from the doctor and was alone with my sons (my husband was stationed in S. Korea then) and felt overwhelmed and helpless. It took 10-11 years before I'd considered asking the Saints to pray for my son or any family members. I also didn't know how and just ended up saying, "Theotokos, Saint John the Wonderworker, and Saint Nektarios, please pray for my son." Literally within 15-20 minutes, a weight was lifted off my shoulders, and I was at peace throughout the month into the return visit at the doctor's office for another MRI to confirm before moving forward. The doctor said he didn't know how it happened, but my son's tumor had shrunk, as well as the cyst, and he no longer needed chemo. I knew why this was. The prayers of the righteous saints are very powerful, and since then, I can't imagine not having the whole of us, on earth and in heaven, separated and it just being me and God. The backing you have with the Saints and your guardian angel, along with obviously God/Trinity, is so full and all-encompassing, it's quite comforting.